From: tgpedersen@...
Message: 10232
Date: 2001-10-15
> tgpedersen wrote:adjectives,
>
> <<Note that names of Skiri and Bastarnae are probably both
> cf the adjectives Eng. sheer, Germ. schier "pure", and fromsomething
> found also in Dutch verbasteren "to corrupt" with adjectival...suffix
> -n-. So they are the pure and impure what? It is as if a nounhere
> were left out here. Could it be Goths?>>
>
> Hi, new to the list.
>
> I'm aware that the Bastarnae and their name have been discussed
> before. But I'd like to offer an observation.some
>
> The use of the word ÒbastardÓ to refer to illegimate children or
> kind of ÒimpureÓ descent appears to be rather recent. The O.E.D.fil
> suggests its origin comes from the idea of Òa pack saddle childÓ -
> de bast - from <bast> occuring in Old Fr. and Med. Lat. as a packBastarnae
> saddle.
>
> But this is all much later than the first appearnance of the
> name in Greek in the 3d century BC. And in the Greek of the time,referred
> <bastazo:> and its related forms had a broad connotation that
> to different kinds of lifing and carrying. Attested are specificapparently
> forms like <bastagion>, a baldric, and more general meanings like
> <bastage:>, transport, and <bastagma>, burden. The Romans
> extended the use of the Greek word to a strapped sandal <basta>,and a
> closed litter <basterna>. There are also instances where <bastar->or
> the like applied to different kinds of wagons in later Romanceway.
> languages and, if I remember correctly, in NT Greek.
>
> If the ÒBastarnaeÓ were involved in moving or even protecting trade
> goods, wagoneering or transport, along some of the northern routes
> into Greece, the name would make some sense in a very practical
> And it supports the idea that Bastarnae was NOT a self-name, anymore
> than the word ÒGreekÓ is as we use it in English.can
>
> (The hitch to this is that, when Tacitus in his Germanica describes
> the Bastarnae as some sort of half-breeds, he seems to be using the
> name as if it to imply an etymology meaning mixed descent. But we
> instead interpret this as Tacitus dealing with Germani bearing thedestroyed
> name of wagoneers - a way of life that he identifies as Sarmatian.
> Tacitus may have been completely unaware of any modern sense of
> Òbastard.Ó)
>
> ItÕs often said that the Bastarnae were somehow absorbed or
> by the Goths. I donÕt think thereÕs much evidence for that. Thethat
> Bastarnae were a large tribe with formdiable military capabilities
> wherever they are described. All there is real evidence for is
> the name just seems to fall out of use.a
>
> In the middle of the 3d century, 100,000 Bastarnae are supposedly
> permitted to resettle in Roman territory as a reward for loyalty to
> Rome. But Jordanes mentions a recruitment around the same time by
> Gothic king of ÒGoths and PeuciniÓ from the island of Peuci - anBastarnae
> obviously highly strategic position at the mouth of the Danube that
> had long been held by the Bastarnae. (The names Peucini and
> were used interchangeably by Tacitus.) After that time, the namethan
> appears rarely, while the Goths' name starts to become common.
>
> There may be an explanation for this. Tacitus, writing no later
> 120AD, was positively insulting in describing the Bastarnae. If wethemselves
> donÕt underestimate the effect of Roman opinion on these people or
> their rulers, we might see how they would want to distance
> from such a maligned heritage. TacitusÕ Germania seems to havebeen
> very important to Theodoric and his interpretation of who and wherethen
> the Goths came from.
>
> And, if in fact Bastarnae was a Greek name given to these people,
> perhaps it was not a self-name, not something they calledthemselves
> among themselves. It could have fallen out of use simply becausethe
> bastarnae started calling themselves something else.between
>
> Which I think leaves open the possibility that the difference
> Goths and Bastarnae could be mainly be one of name.But your theory does not account for the opposition "sheer"/"bastard"
>
> Any commen