Re: [tied] Nostradamus and Dumezil

From: MrCaws@...
Message: 9522
Date: 2001-09-15

--- In cybalist@..., cas111jd@... wrote:

Very interesting points. I agree there are many connections here.

> I suspect that perhaps the Hebrew 'world serpent' Yamm was also
> adopted from Azi Dahaka. In Zoroastrian religion, the evil god
> Ahriman seems on the one hand to have made Azi Dahaka, but also to
> synonymous with him. Basically, it seems that the Hebrew name for
> suggests he was the 'evil twin' of god and synonymous with Satan.
> you know, the Norse Ymir, Persian Yima, and Hindu Yama are all
> derived from a root meaning 'twin', and that Ahriman and Ormazd
> also twins.

I'm not so sure we can establish a direction of borrowing for Yam. He
is a pretty ancient mythological figure in Canaanite myth.

> In Zoroastrian religion, Ahriman and Ormazd are depicted as a black
> snake and white snake biting an egg. This is the primordial egg
> seems to represent Spihr and/or Zurvan, the primordial creator god.
> These eggs are often seen as a disc or orb and also associated with
> gods such as Mithra. They don't have rays such as we would expect
> with a sun-god, but they do often have wings.

> This is the weird part: the Greek caduseus is a black and white
> winding around a staff with a winged disc at the top. I believe
> is the motif as expressed in Zoroastrianism, with the staff and
> winged disc being Spihr, which is basically a version of the 'world
> tree' or 'north pole' with the primordial world egg at the top.

> The caduseus was an attribute of Apollo before be gave it to his
> Asclepius.

The caduceus does seem to be related to the world tree, perhaps an
analogy for it. It is a symbol of power both over life,death, and
healing, and magical power in general.
Apollo played the role of healing/plague diety, as well as deity of
prophecy. The other guy who had it, Hermes, was a trickster magician
diety who also played the role of psychopomp.

I used to wonder how Apollo was depicted as a serpent on
> Delos, or even how he slew the Python at Delphi considering he was
> no way a thunder-god. Now I know. Delphi was the center of the
> in Greek tradition. Ormazd defeated Ahriman in the center of the
> world before casting him into the abyss. Apollo continued this same
> myth in Greece. Even his birthplace on Delos makes sense: the
> heavenly paradise located in the center of the world, where is
> located in Persian myth the 'world mountain' as is found on Delos.

I would argue that Apollo took on the role of serpent slayer because
he played the role of cultural hero. The thunder deity(Thor, Perun
etc) often plays this role, but others do as well. Hercules for
example. Since Apollo was a big cheese cultural hero, esp. in the
Aegean and W. Anatolia, this slaying makes sense. There is also a
freudian hero element to the story, as one version of the story has a
serpent molesting Leto, and Apollo then taking his vengeance. This,
though, seems to be connected to a Canaanite story about Laton(Leto),
and Yamm as the serpent, interestingly enough.

In addition, this story bolsters Apollo's claim to deity of prophecy
by defeating a demonized version of a predecessor.

-Mr. Caws