Re: [tied] iberian substrate

From: Che
Message: 8930
Date: 2001-09-01

That's what I'm asking for!
First, it's an error to talk about the "iberian substratum", as there where different "iberian substratum". In fact, the iberians have only been attested in the coastal side, it is the Catalan speaking area, while the only thing they know about the inner peninsula is that there were "celtiberians all aorund" (???) an Tartessics in the south. My point is that if Sardinian has shown "iberian-like subtratum", this much more alike to be the attested coastal iberian, and not the etheral "inner iberian", and that would explain for instance why protocatalan and protosard have been the only ones to addopt the "ipse" form for the determinate article. Besides, both Sardinia and the current catalan coast where invaded at a similar time. (My English is so bad!!! God!!! I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say!)
What I'm looking for is someone with some knowledge about all that who can tell me wether it makes sense or not, as the "ipse affair" is something that I have always thought about and there's not much study work about iberian substratum and all that.
----- Original Message -----
From: Max Dashu
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 3:07 AM
Subject: Re: [tied] iberian substrate

>> I remember that iberian settlements spread through all the Eastern
>>Iberic coastal side and passed through the Pyrenees until the limit of
>>northern Catalonia, in France, it is, the current Catalan speaking areas.
>>If it is like this, why everybody sais that catalan is not influenced at
>>all by the iberian substratum?<<

Well, Sardinia was a big island, and we know from Strabo et alia that its
people were able to fend off Carthaginian and Roman colonists from its
highland interior. So Romanization came late. But Catalunya's Iberian
substrate had to contend first with Celtic settlement, then heavy
Romanization. Islands often do better keeping their own, but so many
factors: quick and intense conquest like the Germanic conquest of Britain
succeeded in nearly wiping out Celtic language.

Not so far from Catalunya, Ligurian doesn't seem to have survived either.
For that matter, how much Iberian substrate survived in Spain itself?

Max Dashu

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.