From: João S. Lopes Filho
Message: 8873
Date: 2001-08-30
----- Original Message -----From: Che DeBarnaSent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 11:28 AMSubject: Re: [tied] -lh->From: "João S. Lopes Filho" >Reply-To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [tied] -lh- >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:43:43 -0300 > >Anouilh is definitely not Portuguese. Must be Occitan. Lh in portuguese is >allways pre-vocalic. > >The Palatal L is written as > >lh - Portuguese, Occitan >ll - Catalan, Old Spanish (in Modern spelled like z^ or dz^) >gli - Italian > >cf. >Latin coagulu > Italian caglio - Obvaldic cuagl - Old French cail - Occitan >calh - Catalan coall - Portuguese coalho - Spanish cuajo > >Latin folia > Italian foglia - Obvaldic feglia - French feuille - Occitan >folha - Portuguese folha - Catalan full - Spanish hoja - Rumanian foaie > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 6:32 AM >Subject: [tied] -lh- > > > > --- In cybalist@..., "Che DeBarna" wrote: > > > As far as my French skills and my Catalan native speaker condition > > let me go (this time my Spanish-second-language-speaker condition is > > not useful), I'd say that "fenouil" and "Louis" are pronnounced in > > different ways. The first one is - I would - pronnounced /f@'nuj/ and > > the second one is rather /lu'i/ - my international phonetic system > > should be refreshed in my mind, I know... As Piotr (I think) > > said, /f@'nui/ is a iodization of the original lateral palatal final > > sound. I can confirm this because in most Eastern Catalan dialects > > this happens too, and this form lives together with the original form > > (lateral palatal). The same can be applied to "Louis": as far as my > > experience let me know, there's an equivalence between Catalan "o" > > and French "ou" (in Northern dialects, stressed closed "o" is > > executed /u/), it is, originally, French "ou" comes from a > > single "o". Then, if we assume that the pair "oi" is always an > > hyatus, never a diphtong, we can understand the same for > > current "oui" group (I repeat, actually it is an "oi"), at least if > > pronnouced accurately (a well different thing happens when speaking > > more naturally, of course...) > > > > I'm not a native, but Catalan may help for this issue. > > P.S.: Anouilh Portuguese? I don't think they have final "-lh"! I'm > > sure it is a gallization (?) of something like "Anulh" (?) and > > originally pronnounced /a'nuL/ where "L" means "lateral palatal". > > > > > > > > > > I recall seeing a readside advertising board just north of the French > > Spanish border, east side, in the local language ((true?) Catalan) > > which had "sun". > > > > Torsten > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > >You're right.
Well,but one single thing: in modern spanish, /L/ is still written "ll", a different thing is that the lateral palatal is evolving into /j/ (iodization, a.k.a. "yeismo"). Though it is very widespread, the Real Academia says that the right pronnouncing is /L/ (and so I believe). I think this is a phenomenon with a southern spanish origin that is spreading north (in Andalusia you will never hear /L/, while you may easily in North Castille) and affecting the other languages within spain (i'm speaking as a catalan...) Does iodization take place in Portuguese?