Re: [tied] -lh-

From: Che DeBarna
Message: 8858
Date: 2001-08-30

You're right.

Well,but one single thing: in modern spanish, /L/ is still written "ll", a different thing is that the lateral palatal is evolving into /j/ (iodization, a.k.a. "yeismo"). Though it is very widespread, the Real Academia says that the right pronnouncing is /L/ (and so I believe). I think this is a phenomenon with a southern spanish origin that is spreading north (in Andalusia you will never hear /L/, while you may easily in North Castille) and affecting the other languages within spain (i'm speaking as a catalan...) Does iodization take place in Portuguese?

>From: "Jo´┐Żo S. Lopes Filho"
>Reply-To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
>To:
>Subject: Re: [tied] -lh-
>Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:43:43 -0300
>
>Anouilh is definitely not Portuguese. Must be Occitan. Lh in portuguese is
>allways pre-vocalic.
>
>The Palatal L is written as
>
>lh - Portuguese, Occitan
>ll - Catalan, Old Spanish (in Modern spelled like z^ or dz^)
>gli - Italian
>
>cf.
>Latin coagulu > Italian caglio - Obvaldic cuagl - Old French cail - Occitan
>calh - Catalan coall - Portuguese coalho - Spanish cuajo
>
>Latin folia > Italian foglia - Obvaldic feglia - French feuille - Occitan
>folha - Portuguese folha - Catalan full - Spanish hoja - Rumanian foaie
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From:
>To:
>Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 6:32 AM
>Subject: [tied] -lh-
>
>
> > --- In cybalist@..., "Che DeBarna" wrote:
> > > As far as my French skills and my Catalan native speaker condition
> > let me go (this time my Spanish-second-language-speaker condition is
> > not useful), I'd say that "fenouil" and "Louis" are pronnounced in
> > different ways. The first one is - I would - pronnounced /f@'nuj/ and
> > the second one is rather /lu'i/ - my international phonetic system
> > should be refreshed in my mind, I know... As Piotr (I think)
> > said, /f@'nui/ is a iodization of the original lateral palatal final
> > sound. I can confirm this because in most Eastern Catalan dialects
> > this happens too, and this form lives together with the original form
> > (lateral palatal). The same can be applied to "Louis": as far as my
> > experience let me know, there's an equivalence between Catalan "o"
> > and French "ou" (in Northern dialects, stressed closed "o" is
> > executed /u/), it is, originally, French "ou" comes from a
> > single "o". Then, if we assume that the pair "oi" is always an
> > hyatus, never a diphtong, we can understand the same for
> > current "oui" group (I repeat, actually it is an "oi"), at least if
> > pronnouced accurately (a well different thing happens when speaking
> > more naturally, of course...)
> >
> > I'm not a native, but Catalan may help for this issue.
> > P.S.: Anouilh Portuguese? I don't think they have final "-lh"! I'm
> > sure it is a gallization (?) of something like "Anulh" (?) and
> > originally pronnounced /a'nuL/ where "L" means "lateral palatal".
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I recall seeing a readside advertising board just north of the French
> > Spanish border, east side, in the local language ((true?) Catalan)
> > which had "sun".
> >
> > Torsten
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>


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