Re: Etruscans and Herodotus

From: MrCaws@...
Message: 8625
Date: 2001-08-20

--- In cybalist@..., "Joseph S Crary" <pva@...> wrote:
> ------------
> MrCaws Wrote:
> Herodotus puts the departure from Etruscans BEFORE the Trojan war.
> -------------
> I've a slightly different take on this
> Actually, Herodot did not place this tradition. When compared with
> the traditional
> History Herodot provides for early Lydian, it still just floats
> See below:
> Herodotus, The Histories
> Chapter 7
> [1] hê de hêgemoniê houtô periêlthe, eousa
> Hêrakleideôn es to genos
> to Kroisou, kaleomenous de Mermnadas. [2] ên Kandaulês, ton hoi
> Hellênes Mursilon onomazousi, turannos Sardiôn, apogonos de
> Alkaiou
> tou Hêrakleos. Agrôn men gar ho Ninou tou Bêlou tou Alkaiou
> prôtos
> Hêrakleideôn basileus egeneto Sardiôn, Kandaulês de ho
> Mursou
> hustatos. [3] hoi de proteron Agrônos basileusantes tautês
> tês chôrês
> êsan apogonoi Ludou tou Atuos, ap' hoteu ho dêmos Ludios
> eklêthê ho
> pas houtos, proteron Mêiôn kaleomenos. [4] para toutôn
> Hêrakleidai
> epitraphthentes eschon tên archên ek theopropiou, ek doulês
> te tês
> Iardanou gegonotes kai Hêrakleos, arxantes men epi duo te kai
> eikosi
> geneas andrôn etea pente te kai pentakosia, pais para patros
> ekdekomenos tên archên, mechri Kandauleô tou Mursou.
> Rendering
> Then, leadership revolved in the following manner, from [the]
> Hêrakleïdeôn on to the kin of Kroisou, then called
> Mermnadas. From
> Kandaulês, who the Hellênes address as Mursilon, tyrant [of]
> Sardiôn,
> born of Alkaiou [son] of Hêrakleos. On the one hand Agrôn [son]
> of
> Ninou [son] of Bêlou [son] of Alkaiou [were] the first
> Hêrakleïdeôn
> kings to be [at] Sardiôn, then Kandaulês [son] of Mursou [was]
> the
> last. Formerly the dynasty [of] Agrônos gave way to [those] born
> of
> Ludou [son] of Atuos, from who everyone calls the entire Ludios
> country, before [was] called Mêiôn. Together [the]
> Hêrakleidai reared
> up to take hold spurred on as prophesied, brought to being by the
> enslaved Iardanou and Hêrakleos, [these] first followed [by] two
> and
> twenty generations, [in] human years five and 500 From the
> all taken of the father's folks, until Kandauleô [son] of Mursou.
> Traditional Rendering
> [1] Now the sovereign power that belonged to the descendants of
> Heracles1 fell to the family of Croesus, called the Mermnadae, in
> following way. [2] Candaules, whom the Greeks call Myrsilus, was
> ruler of Sardis; he was descended from Alcaeus, son of Heracles;
> Agron son of Ninus, son of Belus, son of Alcaeus, was the first
> Heraclid king of Sardis and Candaules son of Myrsus was the last.
> The kings of this country before Agron were descendants of Lydus,
> of Atys, from whom this whole Lydian district got its name; before
> that it was called the land of the Meii. [4] The Heraclidae,
> descendants of Heracles and a female slave of Iardanus, received
> sovereignty from these and held it, because of an oracle; and they
> ruled for twenty-two generations, or five hundred and five years,
> succeeding father, down to Candaules son of Myrsus.
> I believe the problem is line 3:
> hoi de proteron Agrônos basileusantes tautês tês
> chôrês êsan apogonoi
> Ludou tou Atuos
> This is rendered as:
> Formerly the dynasty [of] Agrônos gave way to [those] born of
> Ludou
> [son] of Atuos
> However the traditional interpretation is:
> The kings of this country before Agron were descendants of Lydus,
> of Atys
> Here the tradition Herodot preserved is about two, possibly three,
> early Meian-Lydian dynasties. The first Meian with Alkaiou to
> Agrôn
> who are called sons of Hercle, followed by the Lydian/Luwia Atuos
> Ludu. This tradition is not totally clear what relationship Myrsus
> and Myrsilus had to Ludu, other than the latter being the last of a
> list of 22 kings form Alkaiou.
> However in a separate tradition Telephus is placed about 30 to 50
> years before Ludu who was a contemporary of Tyrrhenus.
> ----------
> MrCaws wrote:
> Lydia was part of the space that made up the huge Assuwa league.
> league stretched down the entire Anatolian coast. These were
> seafaring peoples. The Taruisa are listed among its members,
> tentatively identified with the Etruscans. Here is where Herodotus
> gets Lydia.
> -----------
> Actually, Lydia appears to be Arzawa, possibly Razawa, and Yereth
> the Egytians rendered it, not Assuwan. Assuwan was a separate
> district that seems to have been defeated and dismantled during the
> Hittite period, but yes this name continued on to become Anatolia
> maybe greater Asia. From time to time, individual states that were
> associated with the Assuwan league were allied with Arzawa. Arzawa
> appears to reach its zenith during the reign of Amenhotep III. Its
> capital was Apasas, possibly Ephesos.

> Regardless, neither the Assuwan or Arzawa states appear to have
> around for more than a few generations. The tradition of longevity
> and relative stability that Herodotus recorded could only have been
> inspired by the Hatti state, which strangely enough appears to have
> lasted about 22 generations.

Assuwa is kind of a sticky issue, actually. Controversy surrounds its
exact boundaries. Some want to put it only to the north of Arzawa, in
the islands and Northern Anatolia.However, in the Iliad, Homer speaks
of two Lycias, one near Mt. Ida and Troy, the other distant Lycia, in
its traditional southern location. And if Apasa were the capital of
the Assuwa league, wouldn't that put it smack dab in the middle of
Arzawa/Lydia Thus, Lydia may well be Arzawa, but Arzawa was part of
In any case, you are right. Assuwa wasn't a stable political body,
but a loose confederation that sometimes fought together for common
goal. And they did lose to the Hittites, became vassals. Shortly
before the troubled times of Sea Peoples and Trojan war.

-Mr. Caws