Miguel:
>This makes no sense: either your *-xe was _not_ univerbated, and thus
>didn't stop the auslaut law *-n > *-r nor made the stress shift; or >it
>_was_ univerbated, caused the stress to shift and prevented *-n > >*-r. You
>can't have a convenient combination of these.
Argh, Miguel! How you frustrate me sometimes :P Try to be calm and think
this through before zealously dismissing what I say. I know you're very fond
of your own theories but this does make sense - you're just not seeing the
whole picture. You are focusing so obsessively at this single heteroclitic
phenomenon that you fail to step back to see the whole language at work.
The collective suffix *-xe did not stop the *-n > *-r law, no. So I guess
that means it was "non-univerbated" in your words. We might make a
distinction then in writing between the genitive *wet:an�se with its *-�se
fully incorporated into the word and *wet:�r-xe with the ending *-xe
attached to a bare stem. The stress shift was still retained because it was
part of the automatic "penultimate accent" thing that you've apparently
forgotten. Only when the final vowels disappeared was the penultimate accent
destroyed, replaced by a mobile accent like in English. Stress can only be
on the second-to-last syllable in this stage of the game and since
*wet:�r-xe constitutes one word, the stress is automatically on *-ar-. Later
the final vowels drop, producing *wet:�rx (later *wedorx > *wedo:r). The
*n>*r change appears to occur before the
"loss-of-final-vowel/penultimate-to-mobile-accent" change.
Anyways, there are only two steps in order to create a collective with *-xe
out of an inanimate in Mid IE:
1. add *-xe to the bare nomino-accusative
2. move the stress over a la penultimate
Nothing here about changing the stem ending. The bare nomino-accusative for
*-n words came to end in *-r so the collective (which afterall is
nomino-accusative itself!) followed suit because it was dependant on the
_nomino-accusative_ form, as are all other possible forms with derivational
suffixes. The genitive case is NOT dependant on the nomino-accusative form -
it came to have its own oblique stem in *-n-.
So in all, the nomino-accusative (including collectives and all other
derivations) is based on the *r-stem; the genitive (and all other
non-nomino-accusative cases) is based on the *n-stem. They originally used
the same stem but the auslaut split things in two, whereupon the *n-stem was
given an _oblique_ meaning. As I say, collectives were not part of the
declensional system. They are derivational processes that behave differently
from cases. Why? Because cases are part of a larger system called
"declension"; collectives are not. Collectives may be lumped up into an
unordered pile with all the other derivations possible in the IE language
that aren't part of an established paradigm.
I hope this clarifies. I'm not sure how to explain it concisely.
Now food for thought:
---------------------
Why on earth would the nomino-accusative collective *wet:ar-xe be
automatically given an oblique marker (*-n-), Miguel?? This is why the
collective is *wet:ar-xe and not **wet:an-xe. Besides, *wat:r and *wet:ar-xe
mean the same thing in the end, and so again, why should they use different
stems? Why should *wat:r change to *-n for every derivation possible in IE
grammar? Should *wat:r change to *wat:n- for every suffix attached to it??
Why, then *wat:r would have immense pressure to end in *-n, wouldn't it! But
it didn't because this pressure didn't exist.
It is far more normal for a language to use the expected forms (with *-r),
except in a _smaller_ number of exceptions like the oblique (with *-n),
rather than having exceptions running amok everywhere, more numerous than
the regularities!
PS: I'm having trouble seeing your essay, which is why I'm so far
uncharacteristically silent. Is it a Microsoft Word or Works document? I'll
have to experiment to find out. I get a whole bunch of boxes in the
document. Curse that Bill Gates!
Sincerely,
your trusty linguistic sidekick,
gLeN
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