Re: Underworld

--- In cybalist@..., "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@...> wrote:

>
> Mr Caws in response to Omar's shamanism ideas:
> > I agree. There are definite echoes of the Finnish construct in
> >Norse mythology. Another connection to shamanism: Loki. Loki plays
> >the part of the pseudo-adversarial trickster common in shamanistic
> >tales very well.
>
> Yes, I might agree as well. I connect the fire as shape-shifter

theme with

> Steppe mythologies. Fire lives in all three realms. Perhaps there

_was_ a

> connection between fire and the shaman in remote ancient times

since both

> live in this world and the other, n'est-ce pas?

I think I fire-shaman connection might be drawn. Perhaps a further
connection can be drawn between fire and magic-Agni, Apollo, the
burned sacrifice

>
> Now concerning whether the Hellhound was originally a serpent. I

disagree.

> The serpent is an underworld creature intrinsically related to the

waters.

> Someone mentioned before about a connection between the shape of

serpents

> and the undulation of water which was interesting and I was too

daft at the

> time to realise this. I view the wolf (or dog if you will) as a

later

> addition because of the third labour (*Yemos and the wolf, both of

the

> earthly realm). When the tamed wolf became the guardian of *Yemos

through

> the *Manus the Mortal Hero's intervention, it also naturally became

the

> guardian to the entrance to the underworld. Hence this would be

where one

> should seek the origin of the dog-underworld connection, or says I.
>
> Evidently the two symbols later have merged or rather the earthly

dog has

> been given added symbolisms such as a serpent tail in order to

invoke the

> new underworld character of the creature. We could also colour him

with an

> underworld colour (like say, red) and obtain the same effect. But

wait...

> what's this! It would seem that Cerberus' eyes are red. He's also

stained

> with blood, which is red.

Well, I don't disagree with the serpent-water part. But I have a
problem with the dog being added BECUASE of a tale of the third labor
of Hercules. This seems like inadequate causation. I don't see
religious practitioners changing their whole underworld based on one
part of another myth.
Also, the instances of thd dog as guardian of the underworld in
many non-IE cultures says to me that this is an old part of the
story.

> But I'm sure that Thor's red beard has nothing to do with the

underworld

> since that's a warrior colour. I guess that means that Cerberus' is

a

> warrior (??) And Venus-Aphrodite too because her symbol is the red

rose. So

> Venus must be a warrior (????) No wait! I know! How 'bout this,

folks? Red

> is the colour of not only war in IE myth but of the _underworld_

too! That

> would explain all these symbolisms so much better. Wow! What a

concept!

I thjink of red, as blood, as a color that symbolizes many things.
Fertility and fecundity, associated with menstrual blood, motherhood,
life.
Associated with death and warfare, yes, because of bloodshed-related
death etc. But this is only part of the motif.

Venus Aphrodite, if connected with Ishtar, is a god of love, the
underworld, and war.
So, I reject the exclusive label of red as an underworld color, but I
agree it is associated.

> Mr Caws:
> > I think some of it might have to do with Odin's dissocation

from

> >the serpent. Most other magician deities have a connection with the
> >serpent, linking them to death and evil as well as wisdom and

power.

> >The serpent was instead a separate primeval force in Norse myth.
> >However, Odin's animals the raven and wolf both have mystical
> >significance...
>
> Can you provide instances of a connection between magic/wisdom and

serpents

> in range of IE myths?

Well, in IE myths, the connections between Veles and the serpent are
one example. Shiva and Pashupati have serpentine connections.
I think you will find that serpent-wisdom connections are an almost
universal motif across cultural lines, also connected with
immortality and intitiation, death and rebirth.
Enki , Sumerian deity, serpentine conections. I won't even go into
the Biblical ones. The caduceus as symbol for medicine and power,
associated with the magician's staff was carried by Hermes. Apollo
was known by the name Pythian apollo.
You agree that the serpent was intrinsically linked with the
underworld and waters. I think that these two themes are linked to
magic and have been for a while. Odin acquired his wisdom from
drinking from a deep well- The waters of the deep or underworld, if
you will. The fruit of the tree of knowledge was guarded by a
serpent in many myths. The aforementioned Enki was a deity of the
deep waters and magic/wisdom.

>
> > Apollo was also a magician deity.
>
> Hmmm, also a healer. Was he a magician because he was a healer...

or was he

> a healer because he was a magician? Apollo's animal is also the

mouse (cf.

> Greek "Apollo Smintheus" and Indic Agni's transformation into a

mouse). The

> mouse is linked with fire and possibly derives from old steppe

mythologies.

> I think that the mouse is an IE symbolism for fire. So, I doubt

that Apollo

> can back the serpent-to-dog hypothesis very well.

Well, the mouse connection links Apollo as deity of disease(I think
the ancients knew that mice brought the plague) and thus healing.
Connections have been drawn between this aspect of Apollo and Rudra,
a natural deity I associate with magic and the serpent. The fire
connection is also unrefutable. The magical power of the burned
offering.
However, he was born from a lupine mother, is known as Lycian Apollo,
and was known as a protector of shepherds in old days as Hittite
Apulanus. He was also a deity of the gateway..Perhaps between life
and death?
Apollo waas a deity of prophecy, Etruscan Apulu was as well.
Apollo was also associated with music, as was Veles, my pet deity.
Veles was also concerned with disease.

> >Now, a mostly unrelated tangent off that last sub-point- Apollo

was a

> >twin, born by a wolf-like mother. The origin of his cult is often
> >thought to lie around Lycia. What other wolf-born twins do we know
> >of? Hmm...
>
> Well, maybe not wolf-born so much as sun-born, the horse being a

symbolism

> of the sun, hence Horse Twins (Ashvins)

Yes, but the mother, Leto was connected with the wolf, symolic of the
moon.

> >[...]and the story of the twins could survive(albeit in a

different >form)

> >in Romulus and Remus. Just a few ideas.
>
> This is old hat. Remus is thought to be a corruption of *Yemos

meaning

> "Twin" (Indic Yama, Norse Ymir).

Here is this divine twin theme again. I am sure it is well known,
but could you clue me in a bit? I am familiar with Cain and Abel,
Romulus and Remus, Castor and Polllux(?), and vaguely with the
concept of Yama, but what is this common link between these ? Forgive
my ignorance.

Now, as far is it being old hat, I don't know, but the conspicuous
wolf motif in Rome and Anatolia still have got me wondering. Lycia
was pretty close to Lydia, wasn't it?

--Mr. Caws

>
>

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