Re: Cimmerians

--- In cybalist@..., "Joesph S Crary" <pva@...> wrote:

> No not Konan, nor even Conan O'Brian
>
> I understand you have a problem with this; however, I take the

terms

> Cimbri and Cimmeri to mean the Nation, Confederation, or Alliance.

As

> according to McBrian the Welsh term can be com-broges or -mroges
> which both are very similar to the earlier Gallic/Belgaic com-brogi
> and -mrogi. In early low German and Saxon-English the word is
> expressed as -marka -marca, -march, -mark; which literally means a
> territorial holding, as in a formal military allotment. Are you
> saying that the Latin and Greek renderings of Cimmeri and Cimbri
> could not have been similar to the Iron Age Gallic/Belgaic words

and

> these in no way can be Brythonic? I'm not proposing that the

Cimmeri

> and Cimbri are the same polity of even the same population, rather
> that both represent culture groups where the dominant language was
> Brythonic.
>
> The Cimmerians of the Ukraine appear to have been a preScythic
> manifestation somehow related to the Late Bronze Age Urnfield

Culture

> of eastern Europe. However, as a culture by the time of its
> dispersal, it was integrated into the Early Iron Age of the Near
> East. Actually, numerous Classical and Roman sources made the
> connection between the Cimmeri and the Cimbri. The earliest is in
> Homer's Odyssey, formalized shortly after the forced dispersal of

the

> Cimmerians from the Ukraine by the Scythians. It mentions the
> Cimmerians and refers to them in a northern European setting

instead

> of their historic Ukrainian homeland.
>
> In several English translations of Plutacrd's Parallel Roman
> Lives-Marius, a relationship is outlined and the Cimmeri-Cimbri
> connection is referred to as Celto-Scythian. I'm currently trying

to

> find a Lation copy to find out what he actually says. He claims

that

> they had advanced by stages from the steppes into north central
> Europe. I believe his use of Scythian, instead of Cimmerian, is
> because even the former term as a latter usage, was no longer

current

> in Pluctard's era. In fact, as widely read in the early 19th

century,

> Plutacrd's mention of the Cimmeri-Cimbri, as the Celto-Scythians,

is

> the inspiration for the more recent Indo-European language theory,

as

> it applies to Europe.
>
> The dispersal of Cimmeric populations from the Ukraine was

documented

> by contemporary Near Eastern sources. Archaeologically, the

dispersal

> of the Cimmeric culture into eastern Europe has been documented.

Its

> referred to as the Thracian-Cimmeric complex. Interestingly, the
> timing to the Cimmeric dispersal coincides nicely with the

beginning

> of the Temperate European Iron Age.
>
> Additionally, along with Cimbri, Aduatuci, Aburones, and Teutones
> from Denmark there were the Sugambri, Ubii, Chatti, Usipetes,
> Tenchtheri in northern Germany, recorded between 120 and 50 BC, all
> of which appear to have either Q- or P-Celt tribal names. Then

there

> are the various Belgaic tribes, again many with either Q- or P-Celt
> tribal names, which crossed over the Rhine and out of northern
> Germany into northeast France and Belgium around 300 BC. This
> suggests that much, if not all, of northern Germany and Denmark was
> occupied by Q- and/or P-Celt speakers until the Cimbric migration

in

> the late 2nd century BC.
>
> Then there are the historic references by Tacitus to the close ties
> between ancient Brythonic and Baltic, coupled with more recently
> documented linguistic similarities, which are related yet separate
> issues.
>
> Hope this helps
>
>
> Joseph

Plus Pytheas' Tanais in Jutland. Now there's a Tanais at both ends of
the "conveyor belt".

Those Celts in Denmark, or whatever they were, may have survived
until the invasion of the Danes.

Torsten