Re: [tied] Number games [was: the centum-word]

On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 13:51:58 +0200, "Piotr Gasiorowski"
<gpiotr@...> wrote:

>You mean the upper decads.

I meant the decades lower than the tenth one. I thought it might be a
confusing way of putting it.

>I've got a theory about the Germanic numerals, but let me lay it out in a separate posting.

OK. I hope it's better than Szemerényi's.

>I think forms like <decimus> or <das'amá-> should be considered analogical, i.e. based on the surface form of *dek^m plus a thematic ending (well, one could consider *-mo-, as in Old Iranian *c^aTru-ma- 'fourth', as a less likely alternative);

Isn't that analogical as well (after *septm.mos)?

>otherwise one wouldn't expect this Sieversian syllabic nasal after a light syllable. Note that Sanskrit has <saptama-> for "seventh" as well.

That's the expected form.

>I'm not sure which of the many attested ordinal formations (if any) is "truly" PIE (or whether there was just a single type of ordinal in the protolanguage rather than two or three shades of ordinality). At any rate, the hypothesis of "original" *-ó-s is simplistic a la Procrustes.

Well, what we should have according to the theory would be:

3rd. *trtiós
4th. *kwturós
5th. *pnkwós[?]
6th. *swk^sós[?]
7th. *sptmós
8th. *h3k^th3ós
9th. *nunós
10th. *dk^mtós

We have evidence for zero grade in most cases (Skt. trtíya-, turíya-,
pakthá-, OPr. uschts, Grk. hebdomos, ogdoos, Luw. 9-unza), and for
simple thematic forms without *-t-, except in the case of "5". Given
the Sanskrit confusion here (*dek^mt-ós, which supposedly triggered
the forms in *-tó, replaced by *dek^m-mós after *septm-mós, itself in
part replaced by saptathá-, analogical after s.a.s.thá-), I think the
ultimate origin for *-thá- in Sanskrit is likely to be the ordinal for
the numeral "5" (despite its canonical form pañcamá-, analogical after
saptamá-). This brings us to the original proto-forms and etymology
of *penkwe, which remains a thorny subject. I like the suggestion
that *-kwe was "and", marking "5" as the last number in the series
(i.e. the last finger in the hand, cf. the "pinkie" [< Du. pink <
non-Germanic [Latin? Celtic?] sub/adstrate?]). But this *-kwe was
added to something that wasn't merely *pen-. If the ordinal as seen
in Avestan puxDa-, Skt. pakthá- is original, that would indicate
something like *p(e)nk(w)tH- (maybe metathesized from *pentH-kw(e) or
*penHt-kwe ?). It is interesting to compare the words for "fist",
Germanic *pu:sti-, Slavic *pensti-.

>Unfortunately, there have been enough language-specific and regional innovations in this area to obscure the historically underlying pattern. Anyone who'd like to speculate on numeral formation in IE should begin by having a look at that monumental collection of papers (dealing with all the branches individually) edited by J. Gvozdanovic' (1992. Indo-European Numerals. Berlin/New York/Amsterdam: Mouton).

US$360,- at amazon.com...

>Talking of speculation, I suspect Hittite -an- '..th', -anna- 'for the ..th time', etc., derive from "singulative" *-h1on- (e.g. *tri-h1on- > *trijon- > teriyan-, *kWtru-h1on- > *kWtruwon, lexicalised as kutruwan- 'witness').

Sounds plausible.

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...