Re: Ingvar and Ivar

--- In cybalist@..., tgpedersen@... wrote:

> --- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: tgpedersen@...
> > To: cybalist@...
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 1:55 PM
> > Subject: Odp: [tied] Re: Ingvar and Ivar
> >
> >
> > >> OHG had zand which has become zahn in Modern German
> > > Aha. But how?
> >
> > The OHG consonant shift transformed *tanT- into [tsand] <zand>, a
> word which had a d-less by-form <zan> already in Old High German --

a

> rather banal case of cluster reduction.
>
> Are there other examples of this banal cluster reduction in OHG?
>

The existence of two stems <zan>/<zand> in Old High German intrigues
me. Are they somehow correlated statistically with nominative/the
oblique cases, such that <zan> is preferred in the nominative and
<zand> in the oblique ones (and nominative plural)?

>
> The lengthening of /a/ before a single voiced consonant (indicated

as

> <ah> in modern orthography) is a regular Middle High German process
> (cf. Hahn, OHG hano).

Is the /a/ in <hano> short then? I would have expected it to be
written <hanno> then.

> >
> >
> > >> The Danish/Swedish -d is of later origin, as in mand, and

should

> NOT be directly compared with Dutch tand.
> > > Aha. And where does that suddenly appear from?
> > > BTW, "mand" is only Danish, not Swedish.
> >
> > What I meant was that the -d was secondary, as in (Danish) mand.

As

> a matter of fact, Swedish normally has <-nn> for etymological *-nT-
> (e.g. Swedish and Norwegian sann 'true' [vs. Danish sand], English
> sooth, OHG sand, all reflecting PGmc. *sanT-), and since

tann 'tooth'

> occurs in Swedish dialects, I suspect Danish influence in Standard
> Swedish tand. I have no Danish or Swedish historical grammar at

hand

> to check the details, but as far as I recall Danish secondary -nd-
> resulted either from epenthesis (mannR > mandr > mand already in

Old

> Danish) or from orthographic hypercorrection (-nd- confused with -

nn-

> ) in Middle Danish (<kvinde> 'woman', <tynd> 'thin', <ind> 'in'
> etc.). Only the latter process could have produced <tand>. If this

is

> wrong, please correct me.
>
> Ah, with pleasure:) First, a remark: -nd- (and -ld-) stood for
> palatalized -n- (and -l-), at least until the 18th century (when a
> book of Danish for foreigners compares them to the similar Spanish
> sounds ñ and ll). When these were depalatalized, the confusion

arose

> in spelling (especially since Danish (unlike Swedish and Norwegian)
> doesn't allow final double consonsant and therefore often is in

need

> of some other means to express that the previous vowel is short).
> As for Danish influence on Swedish: The Swedes made a conscious
> effort to eradicate Danish influence in the written language after
> the union of Kalmar (eg. infinitive -æ > -a). Danish influence in
> Swedish today is hard to find (but: <baka> 'bake', <bagare> 'baker',
> <mig>, <dig>, <sig>, 'me', 'thee', 'oneself', <taga> 'take', and

what

> annoys Swedes the most <Sverige> 'Sweden'. But direct Danish
> influence after 1523? I don't think so.
>
> >
> > Anyway, all the North and West Germanic forms reflect the

allomorph

> *dont- > *tanT-. A solitary nil grade reflex (but without Verner's
> Law) is found in the Gothic "tooth" word tunT-u-s, which, unlike

the

> rest, is a derived form replacing an original root noun.
> Ha!;-) I knew I saw it somewhere.
> >
> > Piotr
>

As to the survival of two differently stressed stems beyond a
paradigm levelling, cf French <maire>/<majeur> (< <májor>/<majóre->)
(which also demonstrates my assumption about the survival of d- from
the nominative in the name of a king Dan: a 'maire' does things and
therefore is mostly in the nominative, so that the nominative stem
prevails.

> Torsten

and
Torsten