--- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: tgpedersen@...
> To: cybalist@...
> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 1:55 PM
> Subject: Odp: [tied] Re: Ingvar and Ivar
>
>
> >> OHG had zand which has become zahn in Modern German
> > Aha. But how?
>
> The OHG consonant shift transformed *tanT- into [tsand] <zand>, a
word which had a d-less by-form <zan> already in Old High German -- a
rather banal case of cluster reduction.
Are there other examples of this banal cluster reduction in OHG?
The lengthening of /a/ before a single voiced consonant (indicated as
<ah> in modern orthography) is a regular Middle High German process
(cf. Hahn, OHG hano).
>
>
> >> The Danish/Swedish -d is of later origin, as in mand, and should
NOT be directly compared with Dutch tand.
> > Aha. And where does that suddenly appear from?
> > BTW, "mand" is only Danish, not Swedish.
>
> What I meant was that the -d was secondary, as in (Danish) mand. As
a matter of fact, Swedish normally has <-nn> for etymological *-nT-
(e.g. Swedish and Norwegian sann 'true' [vs. Danish sand], English
sooth, OHG sand, all reflecting PGmc. *sanT-), and since tann 'tooth'
occurs in Swedish dialects, I suspect Danish influence in Standard
Swedish tand. I have no Danish or Swedish historical grammar at hand
to check the details, but as far as I recall Danish secondary -nd-
resulted either from epenthesis (mannR > mandr > mand already in Old
Danish) or from orthographic hypercorrection (-nd- confused with -nn-
) in Middle Danish (<kvinde> 'woman', <tynd> 'thin', <ind> 'in'
etc.). Only the latter process could have produced <tand>. If this is
wrong, please correct me.
Ah, with pleasure:) First, a remark: -nd- (and -ld-) stood for
palatalized -n- (and -l-), at least until the 18th century (when a
book of Danish for foreigners compares them to the similar Spanish
sounds ñ and ll). When these were depalatalized, the confusion arose
in spelling (especially since Danish (unlike Swedish and Norwegian)
doesn't allow final double consonsant and therefore often is in need
of some other means to express that the previous vowel is short).
As for Danish influence on Swedish: The Swedes made a conscious
effort to eradicate Danish influence in the written language after
the union of Kalmar (eg. infinitive -æ > -a). Danish influence in
Swedish today is hard to find (but: <baka> 'bake', <bagare> 'baker',
<mig>, <dig>, <sig>, 'me', 'thee', 'oneself', <taga> 'take', and what
annoys Swedes the most <Sverige> 'Sweden'. But direct Danish
influence after 1523? I don't think so.
>
> Anyway, all the North and West Germanic forms reflect the allomorph
*dont- > *tanT-. A solitary nil grade reflex (but without Verner's
Law) is found in the Gothic "tooth" word tunT-u-s, which, unlike the
rest, is a derived form replacing an original root noun.
Ha!;-) I knew I saw it somewhere.
>
> Piotr
Torsten