From: Girts Graudins Zadins
Message: 6035
Date: 2001-02-10
>From: cybalist@yahoogroups.com_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
>To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [tied] Digest Number 337
>Date: 10 Feb 2001 19:06:36 -0000
>
>
>There are 25 messages in this issue.
>
>Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Romanian and Slavic
> From: gpiotr@...
> 2. Re: Language - Area - Routes
> From: tgpedersen@...
> 3. Re: Language - Area - Routes
> From: gpiotr@...
> 4. Re: Language - Area - Routes
> From: tgpedersen@...
> 5. Re: Language - Area - Routes
> From: tgpedersen@...
> 6. Re: Romanian and Slavic
> From: "Rex H. McTyeire" <rexbo@...>
> 7. Re: Language - Area - Routes
> From: tgpedersen@...
> 8. Re: Language - Area - Routes
> From: S.Tarasovas@...
> 9. Re: Romanian and Slavic
> From: tgpedersen@...
> 10. Odp: Romanian and Slavic
> From: "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...>
> 11. Re: Language - Area - Routes
> From: tgpedersen@...
> 12. Re: Occam's Razor
> From: S.Tarasovas@...
> 13. Odp: Re: Romanian and Slavic
> From: "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...>
> 14. Odp: Re: Language - Area - Routes
> From: "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...>
> 15. Re: Re: Language - Area - Routes
> From: "Rex H. McTyeire" <rexbo@...>
> 16. Re: Romanian and Slavic
> From: S.Tarasovas@...
> 17. Re: Language - Area - Routes
> From: S.Tarasovas@...
> 18. Re: Romanian and Slavic
> From: S.Tarasovas@...
> 19. Odp: Re: Language - Area - Routes
> From: S.Tarasovas@...
> 20. Re: Language - Area - Routes
> From: S.Tarasovas@...
> 21. Re: Re: Occam's Razor
> From: Jo�o Sim�es Lopes Filho <jodan99@...>
> 22. Re: Re: Language - Area - Routes
> From: Jo�o Sim�es Lopes Filho <jodan99@...>
> 23. Re: Language - Area - Routes
> From: S.Tarasovas@...
> 24. Re: Re: Language - Area - Routes
> From: "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...>
> 25. Krivichian dialect of Proto-Slavic (long)
> From: S.Tarasovas@...
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:48:23 -0000
> From: gpiotr@...
>Subject: Romanian and Slavic
>
>--- In cybalist@..., "Rex H. McTyeire" <rexbo@...> wrote:
>
> > I dunno...proto-slavic may be a Russian invention ..like Scythia :-)
> > Marsh is "mlastina" , and "balta" is just water that goes
>away....slowly.
> > (Carefully preserved ?)
>
>Slavic *bolto is attested with a range of meanings that include 'mud',
>'puddle, pool', 'marsh, wetland' and the like. The Romanian meanings of
>balta ('pond, floodplain') are well within that range. Mlastina is Slavic
>too. By the way, the Romanian vocabulary is Slavicised almost as much as
>English is Franco-Latinised. The number of Slavic loanwords (mainly from
>OCS, which was the church and chancery language in Romania for several
>centuries, and other South Slavic sources) is twice as great as the Romance
>lexical component! Of course the most common words are predominantly (if by
>no means exclusively) of Latin origin, but there are Slavic borrowings even
>among grammatical words and interjections (e.g. da 'yes'). Romanian
>composite numerals do not follow the Latin model but calque Slavic
>constructions (cincisprezece '15' is cinc-spre-zece 'quinque-super-decem'
>like OCS pe~tI na dese~te), and Slavic *sUto '100' was borrowed as suta,
>replacing the Romance numeral.
>
>Balta < *bolto is a rare example of an *early* Slavic loan in Romanian.
>The fact that liquid metathesis failed to affect it proves that it was
>borrowed before the main wave of Slavic influence that began with the
>territorial expansion of the First Bulgarian Kingdom in the 9th and 10th
>centuries. The other known examples are dalta 'chisel' < *dol(b)to- and
>gard 'fence' < *gordU. Greek toponyms of Slavic origin are typically more
>archaic than Slavic words in Romanian, which shows that the expanding Slavs
>in the 6th c. were first attracted by the rich southern provinces rather
>than by Dacia, which had been devastated during the Great Migrations. The
>progress of the Bulgarians lost its impetus towards the end of the 10th c.
>and the First Kingdom was absorbed by Byzantium in 1018, which gave the
>Romanised peasants a chance to keep their Romance language while
>assimilating Slavic and Magyar settlers. Old Romanian was certainly a
>seriously endangered language in the 10th c. (Latin died out in all the
>neighbouring provinces).
>
>Piotr
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:13:35 -0000
> From: tgpedersen@...
>Subject: Re: Language - Area - Routes
>
>--- In cybalist@..., S.Tarasovas@... wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@..., tgpedersen@... wrote:
> > >
> > > Why Slavs?
> > > The closest I ever came to saying that was when I assumed the
> > > Ruthenians were "some kind of Ukrainians", which you immediately
> > > protested against.
> >
> > Please explain for God's sake: what do you mean by "some kind of
> > Ukrainians", considering the fact that today's Ukrainians (and
>their
> > ethnonym) hardly set earlier than XV c.?
> >
> > Sergei
>
>For God's sake, I will reiterate:
>Your question should have been: What *did* you mean, since I haven't
>had that opnion since you corrected me the first time.
>Let me state for the record: I don't believe (anymore) that the
>Ruthenians are "some kind of Ukrainians".
>
>Torsten
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:26:35 -0000
> From: gpiotr@...
>Subject: Re: Language - Area - Routes
>
>The Life of St. Adalbert was indeed written down in 999 or slightly later,
>=
>but refers to the events of 997. The final yer is consistently ignored by
>al=
>l early writers who transcribed Polish names and personal names into Latin,
>=
>but internal years are sporadically recorded as orthographic vowels,
>perhaps=
> as epenthetic cluster-busters rather than etymological segments. The
>first =
>documents in which a large number of Polish words can be found come from
>the=
> 12th c., and by then all weak yers had definitely been lost. The spelling
>o=
>f the earliest sporadic attempts to record Polish is so messy, and the
>examp=
>les are so few that it's difficult to make any sensible generalisations
>(but=
> double consonants are not uncommon. "Gyddanyzc" looks quite successful to
>m=
>e, as compared to some other early versions of Polish toponyms.
>
>Progressive voicing ssimilation like *gd- < *g(U)t- is unlikely in Polish,
>=
>where regressive assimilation of obstruents is the norm. We would expect
>*g(=
>U)t- to yield *kt-. Besides, in out earlier debates Sergei provided some
>ver=
>y nice Lithuanian counterparts of *gUda:n-.
>
>Piotr
>
>
>
>--- In cybalist@..., Miguel Carrasquer Vidal <mcv@...> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 5 Feb 2001 21:12:42 +0100, "Piotr Gasiorowski"
> > <gpiotr@...> wrote:
>
> > >Danzig is a German adaptation of Slavic *gUdan-Isk- (Polish Gdan'sk,
>fir=
>st mentioned in AD 997 as "urb[s] Gyddanyzc"). ...
> >
> > What else do we know about this "urb[s] Gyddanyzc" (Br�uer,
> > Einf�hrung, I 113, mentions it as: "Gelegentlich lassen sich
> > reduzierte Vokale noch in slav. Glossen in nichtslav. Texten belegen,
> > so in der Vita S. Adalberti (nach 999): <Gyddanysc>"). The final -U
> > is not rendered, but was it lost in (West-)Slavic already? Did the
> > author understand or speak any Slavic at all? What was his native
> > language and orthography (e.g. why the spelling <dd>)? Could it be
> > that *gUta- was assimilated to gda- even at a stage where the <yer>'s
> > had not quite vanished completely but led a shadowy existence
> > comparable to the French e-muet?
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:31:28 -0000
> From: tgpedersen@...
>Subject: Re: Language - Area - Routes
>
>--- In cybalist@..., tgpedersen@... wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@..., S.Tarasovas@... wrote:
> >
> > Jon Galster mentions two more *d-n- river names in support of his
> > theory: D�na (supposedly the "exit route" for the Danes into the
> > Baltic) and D�ne, an old Danish name for the Eider river, found on
> > Langebek's map (whoever he is).
> > To which I add: *danu- > *d�n- by u-umlaut (hence ON d�nsk "Danish"
> > >? Polish dun�sk- "Danish" (n� from Dania?)). In East North
>Germanic
> > (Danish and Swedish) (as opposed to West North Germanic) u-umlaut
>is
> > rare (because of regularisation of paradigms?) but does exist (Da.
>sg
> > barn, pl b�rn "child", famously *aluth- > Da. �l "bier").
> >
>
>Embarassing! I take back the stuff of the u-umlaut of ON d�nsk (d�nsk
>tunga "the Danish tongue") proving derivation from *danu-. The u-
>umlaut is part of the inflection (other forms start with dansk-),
>here Nom.f.
>
> > Torsten
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:45:15 -0000
> From: tgpedersen@...
>Subject: Re: Language - Area - Routes
>
>--- In cybalist@..., S.Tarasovas@... wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@..., tgpedersen@... wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Jon Galster mentions two more *d-n- river names in support of his
> > > theory: D�na (supposedly the "exit route" for the Danes into the
> > > Baltic)
> >
> > If I understand correctly, the name of the river you mean is (via
> > Slavic)< Baltic *Dauguva: 'lagre (river)'.
> >
> > Sergei
>
>Yes. But I don't see the etymological connection?
>
>Torsten
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:49:55 +0200
> From: "Rex H. McTyeire" <rexbo@...>
>Subject: Re: Romanian and Slavic
>
>Piotr:
> > Slavic *bolto is attested with a range of meanings that include 'mud',
>'puddle, pool', 'marsh, >wetland' and the like. The Romanian meanings of
>balta ('pond, floodplain') are well within that >range. Mlastina is Slavic
>too.
>
>I agree generally. Checking locally since tweaking Sergei :-).."pond" fits
>into local "balta" as well..if small..and sometimes the intermittent aspect
>is lost...a small pond fluctuating with rain is also a balta..even if it
>never completely dissipates. Related and cute: a frog, from one of the
>latter is a "pui de balta" (Pond Chicken :-) I guess I will concede the
>point to Sergei, :-(
>as related small "wetnesses" seems to carry the point..but the locals do
>distinguish balta from mlastina sharply..they aren't interchangeable or
>synonymous.
>
> > By the way, the Romanian vocabulary is Slavicised almost as much as
>English is Franco->Latinised.
>
>Agree..but I sometimes have disputed the degree or level. What per centage
>would you put
>on the degree of Slavicization? (below you mentioned "twice as great" re
>Romance lexical components?)
>
> >(cincisprezece '15' is cinc-spre-zece 'quinque-super-decem' like OCS
>pe~tI
>na dese~te),
>
>Da, dar: it is beginning to loose out to a shortening of form (all
>"teens").
>Both are now accepted in even formal speech:
>
>(cincisprezece) is becoming (cincispe) rapidly, only briefly pausing at
>(cincispre).
>
> >...which gave the Romanised peasants a chance to keep their Romance
>language while >assimilating Slavic and Magyar settlers. Old Romanian was
>certainly a seriously endangered >language in the 10th c. (Latin died out
>in
>all the neighbouring provinces).
>
>Concur completely. Thanks.
>
>Cu Stima
>Rex H. McTyeire
>Bucharest, Romania
><rexbo@...>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:00:10 -0000
> From: tgpedersen@...
>Subject: Re: Language - Area - Routes
>
>--- In cybalist@..., "Rex H. McTyeire" <rexbo@...> wrote:
> > Rex:
> > > >" Mare a Brailei" and (are you ready for the word?) "Balta a
> > > >Ialomitei" ("The Big Island of Brailei" {local city} and "The
> > Intermittent Lakes of
> > > > Ialomitei" {another town}) A balta essentially = a big mud
> > > >puddle after a rain, that takes too long to go away.
> >
> > Sergei:
> > > Romanian carefully preserved Proto-Slavic *bo'lto (<*ba'lta(m),
> > > here ' for an old acute) 'marsh'.
> >
> > I dunno...proto-slavic may be a Russian invention ..like Scythia :-)
> > Marsh is "mlastina" , and "balta" is just water that goes
>away....slowly.
> > (Carefully preserved ?)
> >
> > > >I have a printed English translation of a 12th Cent. German monk
> > > >refering to Romanians in Moldavia at war with "Ruthenian
>neighbors".
> > That
> > > >narrows the Ruthenians in his reference to either Ukraine or
>Poland, and
> > the
> > > >islands reinforce Ukraine.
> >
> > > Misunderstanding snowballs. Torsten insisted on the 1st half of
>the
> > > first millenium AD. 12th century writing ABOUT 12TH CENTURY'S
>EVENTS
> > > for sure used 'Ruthenian' (or what it were in the original) to
> > > designate East Slavs, inhabitants of RusI. No Danes.
> >
> > Torsten quibbles too much :-) I'm not even sure whose side I'm on,
>and I'm
> > not selling Danes in the Ukraine: but you neglect all those islands.
> >
> > Regards;
> > Rex H. McTyeire
> > Bucharest, Romania
> > <rexbo@...>
>
>English is a strange language. I suppose "quibble" means "responding
>politely to postings of another opinion than your own".
>But I realise of course that if the Danes were related to that heap
>of *dnn- people, it would mean more glory to this boring little
>people in Northern Europe;-). I don't recall all these temper
>tantrums and meta-theorizing over the addition of yet anoter item to
>the rest of the *dnn- folks (slightly untrue). We could of course
>change the subject if it makes you unhappy? :)
>
>Since you just saved my pet theory here is my recollection of *balta-:
>
>Illyrian *balta- "swamp" > (that fabled "North Illyrian") 'Balt-ic'
>(and the straits of Great and Little Belt)
>
>Torsten
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:06:45 -0000
> From: S.Tarasovas@...
>Subject: Re: Language - Area - Routes
>
>--- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
> > Rex,
> >
> The Kievan rulers at that time were Slavicised descendants of a
>former Scandinavian elite, converted to Orthodox Christianity.
> >
> > Piotr
>
>I would prefer to more prudently call representatives of the RusI
>ethnos 'Germanic' rather than 'Scandinavian'. The sources we have
>point, more or less consistently, to the South Baltic cost as their
>probable Urheimat. Varingian (Scandinavian) influence were strong as
>well, even some confrontation between RusI and Vare,zi is sometimes
>supposed, but the rulers were of RusI, not Varangian origin.
>
>Sergei
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 9
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:13:29 -0000
> From: tgpedersen@...
>Subject: Re: Romanian and Slavic
>
>--- In cybalist@..., gpiotr@... wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@..., "Rex H. McTyeire" <rexbo@...> wrote:
> >
> > > I dunno...proto-slavic may be a Russian invention ..like
>Scythia :-)
> > > Marsh is "mlastina" , and "balta" is just water that goes
>away....slowly.
> > > (Carefully preserved ?)
> >
>[snip]
>
>Another quibble:
> > Slavic *bolto is attested with a range of meanings that
>include 'mud', 'puddle, pool', 'marsh, wetland' and the like. The
>Romanian meanings of balta ('pond, floodplain') are well within that
>range. >
> > Balta < *bolto is a rare example of an *early* Slavic loan in
> >Romanian
>[snip]
> > The other known examples are dalta 'chisel' < *dol(b)to- and
> >gard 'fence' < *gordU.
>Da. g�rd 'farm, yard', g�rde 'fence'. (Danish farms are typically
>four houses arranged in a square, leaving an open space between them).
>Considering my other mail (about "Illyrian" *balta-), were these
>words all Slavic?
>
>Torsten
>
> > Piotr
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 10
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:20:32 +0100
> From: "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...>
>Subject: Odp: Romanian and Slavic
>
>The lexical Slavicisation of Old Romanian was very heavy indeed. I have the
>following numbers for a *Romanian* etymological dictionary of Romanian (so
>if there's any bias, it isn't foreign). The dictionary is rather old, but I
>think the proportions are generally valid:
>
>Origin Number of items
>
>Slavic 2350
>Latin 1150
>Turkish 950
>Mod. Greek 650
>Hungarian 600
>
>There have been some symbolic attempts to "purify" Romanian by making it
>more Latin-like; e.g. the artificial term limba rom�na has replaced older
>limba rum�neasca with the Slavic suffix *-Isk- and the historically regular
>raising o > u in pretonic syllables.
>
>Piotr
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rex H. McTyeire
> To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 12:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [tied] Romanian and Slavic
>
>
> Agree..but I sometimes have disputed the degree or level. What per
>centage
> would you put on the degree of Slavicization? (below you mentioned
>"twice as great" re
> Romance lexical components?)
>
>
>[This message contained attachments]
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 11
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:23:00 -0000
> From: tgpedersen@...
>Subject: Re: Language - Area - Routes
>
>--- In cybalist@..., S.Tarasovas@... wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
> > > Rex,
> > >
> > The Kievan rulers at that time were Slavicised descendants of a
> > former Scandinavian elite, converted to Orthodox Christianity.
> > >
> > > Piotr
> >
> > I would prefer to more prudently call representatives of the RusI
> > ethnos 'Germanic' rather than 'Scandinavian'. The sources we have
> > point, more or less consistently, to the South Baltic cost as their
> > probable Urheimat. Varingian (Scandinavian) influence were strong
>as
> > well, even some confrontation between RusI and Vare,zi is sometimes
> > supposed, but the rulers were of RusI, not Varangian origin.
> >
> > Sergei
>
>What do you make of the names of the early Rus rulers (he said with
>his nose in mr. Galster's book): Rurik, Oleg and Igor, supposedly
>R�rek, Helge and Iver (which he even call Scylding, thus Danish
>names)?
>
>Torsten
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 12
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:24:49 -0000
> From: S.Tarasovas@...
>Subject: Re: Occam's Razor
>
>--- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
> > Here's a simple example. The "Italo-Celto-Germanic" word for 'fish'
>has traditionally been reconstructed as *pisk(o)- (Latin piscis, OIr
>�asc, Gothic fisks), but if we analyse it as *pik^-sk(o)- with
>cluster simplification, an attractive hypothesis emerges: *peik^-
>means 'paint, mark, decorate', and so the 'fish' word can be
>interpreted as 'speckled, spotted' -- the original meaning being
>perhaps 'trout'. We violate the principle of parsimony (*pik^-sko- is
>not the simplest analysis, though it remains within the bounds of
>formal acceptability), but the payoff may justify this offence: we
>find previously unrecognised cognates outside the Western IE area
>that support the new analysis, like Slavic *pIstr-o~gU 'common trout'
>(with *pIstr- < *pisr- < *pik^-r- = *pIstrU 'piebald, variegated'),
>and by finding a semantic derivation for *pisko- we arrive at a more
>elegant and intellectually more satisfying etymology. Of course the
>next step should be to show the new hypothesis to the public so that
>critics can identify its weak points and possibly make us abandon it.
> >
> > Piotr
>
>Proto-Slavic *ryba 'fish' can be (and has been, by Toporov)
>interpreted as *ry2ba, where y2 is a hypothetic phoneme for nasalized
>*y (*y,) < *o:n (this developement is usually postulated for auslaut
>only, but there are some facts that allow to extend it to inlaut in
>some cases [most probably prosody plays some role]). A connection to
>Proto-Slavic *re,b- 'specky, pocky' is obvious in that case. This can
>support pik^-sk(o)- reconstruction typologically.
>
>Sergei
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 13
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:37:31 +0100
> From: "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...>
>Subject: Odp: Re: Romanian and Slavic
>
>Dalta < *dolbto and balta < *bolto are 100% Slavic. "Baltic Illyrian" is a
>myth (Baltic Venetic might just be real, but we know next to nothing about
>the Venetic vocabulary), while *bolto- has a good deal of inner-Slavic
>support (e.g. bIltati 'stir violently'). Gard could be ultimately Germanic
>(though Germanic loanwords are not conspicuously present in Romanian);
>after all, Slavic gordU is itself a very probable Germanic borrowing (no
>satemisation).
>
>Piotr
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: tgpedersen@...
> To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 1:13 PM
> Subject: [tied] Re: Romanian and Slavic
>
>
> Da. g�rd 'farm, yard', g�rde 'fence'. (Danish farms are typically
> four houses arranged in a square, leaving an open space between them).
> Considering my other mail (about "Illyrian" *balta-), were these
> words all Slavic?
>
> Torsten
>
>
>[This message contained attachments]
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 14
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:41:02 +0100
> From: "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...>
>Subject: Odp: Re: Language - Area - Routes
>
>Do you mean the RusI could be a surviving group of Gothic or Gepidic
>origin? What exactly points to the South Baltic (rather than Sweden or
>thereabouts) as their homeland?
>
>Piotr
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: S.Tarasovas@...
> To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 1:06 PM
> Subject: [tied] Re: Language - Area - Routes
>
>
> I would prefer to more prudently call representatives of the RusI ethnos
>'Germanic' rather than 'Scandinavian'. The sources we have point, more or
>less consistently, to the South Baltic cost as their probable Urheimat.
>Varingian (Scandinavian) influence were strong as
> well, even some confrontation between RusI and Vare,zi is sometimes
>supposed, but the rulers were of RusI, not Varangian origin.
>
> Sergei
>
>
>[This message contained attachments]
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 15
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:45:24 +0200
> From: "Rex H. McTyeire" <rexbo@...>
>Subject: Re: Re: Language - Area - Routes
>
> > English is a strange language. I suppose "quibble" means "responding
> > politely to postings of another opinion than your own".
>
>I meant it more in the sense of a tendency to valiantly stand alone in
>defense of positions against invading hordes of better equiped facts. :-)
>
> >We could of course
> > change the subject if it makes you unhappy? :)
>
>No No. I love to argue. Even when I loose, I have by definition, learned
>something :-)
>
>Cu Stima;
>Rex H. McTyeire
>Bucharest, Romania
><rexbo@...>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 16
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:48:57 -0000
> From: S.Tarasovas@...
>Subject: Re: Romanian and Slavic
>
>--- In cybalist@..., gpiotr@... wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@..., "Rex H. McTyeire" <rexbo@...> wrote:
>
> > Balta < *bolto is a rare example of an *early* Slavic loan in
>Romanian. >
> > Piotr
>
>What always astonished me is a (never commented?) BALTIC loan in
>Romanian: doina (Rex, correct the spelling in case it's wrong,
>please) 'folk song and dance' (correct the semantics as well, if...)
>< (?) Baltic *daina: 'song'. Any ideas?
>
>Sergei
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 17
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:51:36 -0000
> From: S.Tarasovas@...
>Subject: Re: Language - Area - Routes
>
>--- In cybalist@..., tgpedersen@... wrote:
>
> > For God's sake, I will reiterate:
> > Your question should have been: What *did* you mean, since I
>haven't
> > had that opnion since you corrected me the first time.
> > Let me state for the record: I don't believe (anymore) that the
> > Ruthenians are "some kind of Ukrainians".
> >
> > Torsten
>
>Sorry for misunderstanding, I just missed the tense somehow.
>
>Sergei
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 18
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:07:02 -0000
> From: S.Tarasovas@...
>Subject: Re: Romanian and Slavic
>
>--- In cybalist@..., "Rex H. McTyeire" <rexbo@...> wrote:
> > Piotr:
> > I agree generally. Checking locally since tweaking Sergei :-)..
>
>It's OK, you just showed a healthy immunity from ethnocentrists, if I
>got you right. I'm only half-Russian, by the way, so I'm deprived by
>default from the pleasure of being ethnocentric.
>
>Sergei
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 19
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:29:04 -0000
> From: S.Tarasovas@...
>Subject: Odp: Re: Language - Area - Routes
>
>--- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
> > Do you mean the RusI could be a surviving group of Gothic or
>Gepidic origin? What exactly points to the South Baltic (rather than
>Sweden or thereabouts) as their homeland?
> >
> > Piotr
> > ----- Original Message -----
>
>Exactly. Some Western medieval chronicles designate RusI as 'Rugi'
>(eg, 'Elga regina Rugorum', I quote from memory, where Elga is that
>famous OlIga of 'Pove^stI' vre^menInyxU le^tU'). If I'm not mistaken,
>Rugi originally were close to Goths or Gepids (at least
>geographically).
>
>I've read that out of two different (but issued in Russia) books on
>the Russian ethnogenesis. I was too lazy at the time to check the
>index of sources, but my impression is that it wasn't mere
>speculation. I can't produce stronger testimony to my statement, but
>please be aware of this theory at least as an alternative.
>
>Sergei
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 20
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:50:22 -0000
> From: S.Tarasovas@...
>Subject: Re: Language - Area - Routes
>
>--- In cybalist@..., tgpedersen@... wrote:
> > What do you make of the names of the early Rus rulers (he said with
> > his nose in mr. Galster's book): Rurik, Oleg and Igor, supposedly
> > R�rek, Helge and Iver (which he even call Scylding, thus Danish
> > names)?
> >
> > Torsten
>
>Germanic philology is not my string point, but what if we
>recinstruct, eg, Gothic forms of these names (Old Russian R'urikU,
>OlIgU, OlIga, IgorI:IngUvarI)? Please note also: it's sometimes hard
>to distinguish persons of RusI origin from persons of Varingian (Old
>Russian vare,zI) origin. Other Germanic name mentioned in Russian
>chrinicles are SfinUkelU (RusI), AskolIdU, DirU (Varangians),
>SveNIlIdU (?). Varangians well might be Danes (among others), your
>mention of Danes in Kiev is absolutely right (but there were large
>colonies of Jews, Khazars, Greeks etc. in Kiev as well). Constantine
>Porphyrogenetes enumerates 'Rho:~s'ish (='RusI'ish) names of Dnieper
>rapids which are certainly Germanic, but AFASK some interpret them as
>Scandinavian, some doubt. I'll try to post the names ASAP.
>
>Sergei
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 21
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:04:35 -0200
> From: Jo�o Sim�es Lopes Filho <jodan99@...>
>Subject: Re: Re: Occam's Razor
>
>That's a bunch of good ideas!
>
>The meaning of "speckled" also appears in *perk^-
>Grk perke: "perch"
>OE forn "trout"
>Irish earc "salmon"
>Ligurian Porco- "fish"?
>ON fj�rsung <*ferxsungaz<*perks-nkos "Trachinus draco"
>
>Other curious PIE(?) word for a kind of fish:
>
>*kopH- or *kupH-
>Greek kyprinos "carp"
>Sanskrit s'aphala
>Lithuanian s^apalas
>Latin clupeus "hering" - maybe <*cupleus <*cup-
>
>
>Joao SL
>Rio
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <S.Tarasovas@...>
>To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 10:24 AM
>Subject: [tied] Re: Occam's Razor
>
>
> > --- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
> > > Here's a simple example. The "Italo-Celto-Germanic" word for 'fish'
> > has traditionally been reconstructed as *pisk(o)- (Latin piscis, OIr
> > �asc, Gothic fisks), but if we analyse it as *pik^-sk(o)- with
> > cluster simplification, an attractive hypothesis emerges: *peik^-
> > means 'paint, mark, decorate', and so the 'fish' word can be
> > interpreted as 'speckled, spotted' -- the original meaning being
> > perhaps 'trout'. We violate the principle of parsimony (*pik^-sko- is
> > not the simplest analysis, though it remains within the bounds of
> > formal acceptability), but the payoff may justify this offence: we
> > find previously unrecognised cognates outside the Western IE area
> > that support the new analysis, like Slavic *pIstr-o~gU 'common trout'
> > (with *pIstr- < *pisr- < *pik^-r- = *pIstrU 'piebald, variegated'),
> > and by finding a semantic derivation for *pisko- we arrive at a more
> > elegant and intellectually more satisfying etymology. Of course the
> > next step should be to show the new hypothesis to the public so that
> > critics can identify its weak points and possibly make us abandon it.
> > >
> > > Piotr
> >
> > Proto-Slavic *ryba 'fish' can be (and has been, by Toporov)
> > interpreted as *ry2ba, where y2 is a hypothetic phoneme for nasalized
> > *y (*y,) < *o:n (this developement is usually postulated for auslaut
> > only, but there are some facts that allow to extend it to inlaut in
> > some cases [most probably prosody plays some role]). A connection to
> > Proto-Slavic *re,b- 'specky, pocky' is obvious in that case. This can
> > support pik^-sk(o)- reconstruction typologically.
> >
> > Sergei
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 22
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:13:17 -0200
> From: Jo�o Sim�es Lopes Filho <jodan99@...>
>Subject: Re: Re: Language - Area - Routes
>
>What Germanic names are equivalent to SfinUkelU, DirU and SveN I l IdU ?
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <S.Tarasovas@...>
>To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 11:50 AM
>Subject: [tied] Re: Language - Area - Routes
>
>
> > --- In cybalist@..., tgpedersen@... wrote:
> > > What do you make of the names of the early Rus rulers (he said with
> > > his nose in mr. Galster's book): Rurik, Oleg and Igor, supposedly
> > > R�rek, Helge and Iver (which he even call Scylding, thus Danish
> > > names)?
> > >
> > > Torsten
> >
> > Germanic philology is not my string point, but what if we
> > recinstruct, eg, Gothic forms of these names (Old Russian R'urikU,
> > OlIgU, OlIga, IgorI:IngUvarI)? Please note also: it's sometimes hard
> > to distinguish persons of RusI origin from persons of Varingian (Old
> > Russian vare,zI) origin. Other Germanic name mentioned in Russian
> > chrinicles are SfinUkelU (RusI), AskolIdU, DirU (Varangians),
> > SveN I l IdU (?). Varangians well might be Danes (among others), your
> > mention of Danes in Kiev is absolutely right (but there were large
> > colonies of Jews, Khazars, Greeks etc. in Kiev as well). Constantine
> > Porphyrogenetes enumerates 'Rho:~s'ish (='RusI'ish) names of Dnieper
> > rapids which are certainly Germanic, but AFASK some interpret them as
> > Scandinavian, some doubt. I'll try to post the names ASAP.
> >
> > Sergei
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 23
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 15:25:10 -0000
> From: S.Tarasovas@...
>Subject: Re: Language - Area - Routes
>
>--- In cybalist@..., Jo�o Sim�es Lopes Filho <jodan99@...> wrote:
> > What Germanic names are equivalent to SfinUkelU, DirU and SveN I l
>IdU ?
>
>That's the question the answer to which I would like to know myself.
>I'm not a Germanist, some help is required.
>
>Sergei
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 24
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 19:49:20 +0100
> From: "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...>
>Subject: Re: Re: Language - Area - Routes
>
>It's a fascinating alternative to a Swedish or (directly) Gotlandic origin
>of the Rus. I'll keep in mind and would be grateful for any references or
>further evidence. The Rugians were indeed the Goths' neighbours and foes:
>
>"As soon as they disembarked from their ships and set foot on the land,
>they straightway gave their name to the place. And even to-day it is said
>to be called Gothiscandza. Soon they moved from here to the abodes of the
>Ulmerugi, who then dwelt on the shores of Ocean, where they pitched camp,
>joined battle with them and drove them from their homes. Then they subdued
>their neighbors, the Vandals, and thus added to their victories" (Jordanes
>4.25-26).
>
>Jordanes probably exaggerates the exploits of the Goths, but that isn't the
>point. He also mentions the Rugi as a Germanic tribe living somewhere in
>the neighbourhood of "the island of Skandza"). The name of R�gen (Rugia) is
>supposed to be connected with Jordanes' Holm-Rugians (Ulme- = *hulma-
>'island'), and their immediate military engagement with the Goths as soon
>as the latter had settled near the Bay of Gdansk suggests that the Rugians
>occupied much of northwestern Poland as well.
>
>Piotr
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: S.Tarasovas@...
>To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 2:29 PM
>Subject: Odp: [tied] Re: Language - Area - Routes
>
>
>--- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
> > Do you mean the RusI could be a surviving group of Gothic or
>Gepidic origin? What exactly points to the South Baltic (rather than
>Sweden or thereabouts) as their homeland?
> >
> > Piotr
> > ----- Original Message -----
>
>Exactly. Some Western medieval chronicles designate RusI as 'Rugi'
>(eg, 'Elga regina Rugorum', I quote from memory, where Elga is that
>famous OlIga of 'Pove^stI' vre^menInyxU le^tU'). If I'm not mistaken,
>Rugi originally were close to Goths or Gepids (at least
>geographically).
>
>I've read that out of two different (but issued in Russia) books on
>the Russian ethnogenesis. I was too lazy at the time to check the
>index of sources, but my impression is that it wasn't mere
>speculation. I can't produce stronger testimony to my statement, but
>please be aware of this theory at least as an alternative.
>
>Sergei
>
>
>[This message contained attachments]
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 25
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 19:06:06 -0000
> From: S.Tarasovas@...
>Subject: Krivichian dialect of Proto-Slavic (long)
>
>The language of Old Russian birch bark inscriptions has been
>mentioned several times in the discussions on this list. It has some
>unique features yet not generally known even to Slavicists, so I
>guess a brief of its characteristics might be of some use here.
>
>1. The language mostly reflexes the Krivichian dialect of Proto-
>Slavic. Krivichi (Old Russian Krivic^i < (Proto-Slavic) *kriv- <
>(Balto-Slavic) *kreiv- 'bend, tear off' + patronymic *-itj-) might be
>the most 'Baltoid' (hence, probably, most 'archaic') of the Slavic
>tribes. Their name is somehow related to Lith. Kri`ve.-Kriva'itis 'a
>representative of an old priestly lineage', krivu`le. 'a crooked
>staff of a chieftain-priest' (both < *kriv-, ablauted *kreiv-,
>Kriva'itis < *kriv-a- + patronymic *-Hit-i-). They inhabited the
>Dnieper sources and thereabouts. The Latvians still call the
>Russians 'Krivichians'.
>
>2. Phonetic features
>(no special effort made to distinguish phonemic and phonetic
>levels, /@/ stands for some kind of schwa, /G/ for
>fricative /g/, /s'/,/z'/,/c'/ - close to Polish s',z',c', /AE/ - open
>e close to English a in gap; /e./ - narrow e close to German eh;
>contemporary dialects = those that considered descendants of
>Krivichian).
>
>2.1. Proto-Slavic Krivichian Contemporary dialects
> *TerT,*TelT Ter@...,Tol@...:Tel@... TeryT, TolyT:TelyT
> *TorT,*TolT Tor@...,Tol@... ToryT, TolyT
> *TIrT T(I)rIT:T(I)rUT TreT:TerT:Trot
> *TIlT T(U)lUT:T(I)lUT TloT:TolT:TolyT:TelT
> *TUrT T(U)rUT TroT:TorT:ToryT
> *TUlT T(U)lUT TloT:TolT:TolyT
>
>These feature (*TerT > Ter@... etc.) can't be classified as South, East
>or West Slavic.
>Charasteristic 'Standard Old Russian' development ( > TereT etc)
>failed. One Krivichian form was naturalized even in today's Standard
>Russian (in a folksay iz ogn'a da v polym'a 'out of the frying-pan
>into the fire', po'lym'a 'fire, Acc.' < (Kriv.) *pol@..., < (Proto-
>Slavic) *po~lme, 'flame', proper Standard Russian form would be
>*polom'a.
>
>2.2. Proto-Slavic Krivichian Contemporary dialects
> *k{e^,i2} k'{e^,i2} k{e,i}
> *g{e^,i2} g'{e^,i2} g{e,i}
> *x{e^,i2} x'{e^,i2} x{e,i}
>These feature (failed 'second palatalization') is unique among all
>the registered Slavic idioms. Cf. 'Standard Old Russian' development
>(> c{e^,i} etc).
>
>2.3. Proto-Slavic Krivichian Contemporary dialects
> *kv{e^,i,I} no change kv{e,i}
> *gv{e^,i,I} no change gv{e,i}
> *xv{e^,i,I} no change xv{e,i}
>The same picture in West Slavic. Charasteristic 'Standard Old
>Russian' development ( > cv{e^,i,I} etc) failed. Cf. Ukrainian
>kvitka 'a flower' < *kve^tUk-.
>
>2.4. Proto-Slavic Krivichian Contemporary dialects
> *Ix no change x
>These feature (failed 'third palatalization' for /x/) is unique among
>all the registered Slavic idioms. Cf. 'Standard Old Russian'
>development (> Is').
>
>2.5. Proto-Slavic Krivichian Contemporary dialects
> *tj k' k':(before back vowels)k
> *dj g' g':z':(before back vowels)g
> *sj x' x':(before back vowels)x
> *zj G' G':(before back vowels)G
> *stj s'k' ?
> *zdj z'g' ?
> *skj,*sk{e,i,I} s'k' ?
> *zgj,*zg{e,i,I} z'g' ?
>
>These feature (*tj > k' etc.) can't be classified as South, East or
>West Slavic.
>Charasteristic 'Standard Old Russian' development ( > c^ etc) failed.
>
>2.6. Proto-Slavic Krivichian Contemporary dialects
> *tl kl kl
> *dl gl gl
>These feature (*tl > kl etc.) can't be classified as South, East or
>West Slavic.
>Cf. charasteristic 'Standard Old Russian' development ( > l).
>
>2.7. Proto-Slavic Krivichian Contemporary dialects
> *k{e,i,I},Ik c' c
> *kj c' c
> *s{e,i,I} s' s'
> *z{e,i,I},*Ig z' z'
> *x{e,i,I} s' ?
> *sj s' s'
> *zj z' z'
> *s^ s' s'
> *z^ z' z'
>These feature (neutralazation of difference between s' and s^ etc)
>can't be classified as South, East or West Slavic.
>Cf. charasteristic 'Standard Old Russian' development (no
>neutralization).
>
>2.8. Proto-Slavic Krivichian Contemporary dialects
> *e^ AE,eAE 'a
>Similar picture in South and West Slavic. Cf.
>charasteristic 'Standard Old Russian' development (> e. : ei>ie).
>
>2.9. Proto-Slavic Krivichian Contemporary dialects
> *s,*s^<*xj,x{e,i,I} x (in some positions) x
>
>3. Morphology.
>
>3.1. a:-declination.
>G. sing., N. pl. -e^ (<e^2, [e^ nasalized?]). Cf. 'Standard Old
>Russian' -y (<y2).
>Something similar in West Slavic (?, Piotr?).
>
>3.2. o-declination.
>N. sing. -e (sic!). {k,g,x} before this -e > {k',g',x'} (as if
>the 'first palatalization' failed). Nouns, adjectives, participles
>and pronouns are equally affected.
>Acc. sing. is normal -U.
>
>These feature (-U expected, opposition N.:Acc. not neutralized) is
>unique among all the registered Slavic idioms.
>Attempts to explain:
>a. From Voc. sing. -e (Sobolevsky). Unlikely.
>b. -U > -e fonetically (Borkovsky, Zhukovskaya). Unlikely.
>c. -e directly continues Proto-IE casus indefinitus (traces in
>Hittite, Tocharian) (Ivanov). Too romantic.
>d. Proto-IE *-os > *@ (>-e) in Proto-Krivichian, while >U in all
>other Proto-Slavic dialects (Nikolayev, Dybo, Zalizniak). Problematic.
>e. By analogy with -jo- declination (may be so as to preserve N.:Acc.
>opposition) (Vermeer, Krysko [who I contacted personally]). Most
>perspective?
>
>D. sing. -ovi (by analogy with u-declination).
>The same picture in West Slavic. Cf. 'Standard Old Russian' -u.
>
>3.3. Extremely archaic adjectival declination (close to that of OCS).
>No 'Standard Old Russian' forms like G.sing.masc./neut. -ogo
>(Krivichian - -a:-ago).
>Some features (G. sing. fem. -e^e^ > -e^i) are characteristic of West
>Slavic.
>
>3.4. Pronominal declination.
>tU 'that': *e^ > *i in declination paradigm (*te^xU > tixU).
>Something similar in Slovenian.
>ty 'you (2 pers. sing.)': tobe^, sobe^, like in Polish and Checz (but
>not Slovak and Sorbish).
>
>3.5. Conjugation.
>3 sing./plur. praes.: no characteristic -tI (z^ive instead of
>*z^ivetI).
>
>1. plur. praes.: -me (like in Checz, Slovak, Bulgarian and some
>Ruthenian :)))), Torsten, are you there? dialects). 'Standard Old
>Russian' and most other Slavic idioms have -mU.
>
>Praes. part. in /-e,/ even in 'hard' stems (idi-/ide,/ nesti-/nese,/,
>close to Old Serbian?). Cf. 'Standard Old Russian' ida (close to
>Checz jda, Old Polish relic rzeka), OCS idy.
>
>4. Word formation.
>
>Possessive -ov- > -ev- after -k- (ZuikevU 'of ZuikU' instead of
>*ZuikovU.). Resembles Polish last names like Mick-iew-icz).
>
>5. Lexis.
>
>Two scores of words, not registered for other Slavic idioms.
>Inappreciably small bias to West Slavic vs. East Slavic. Germanic and
>Finno-Ugric loans.
>
>Sergei
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>