--- In cybalist@..., tgpedersen@... wrote:
> Yes, you're right. But the point I (or rather "Hemming") was trying
> to make hinges not on the ethnicity of the Ruthenians but on their
> geographical position. Something like "If the Ruthenians were in
the
> Ukraine and the Danes were fighting them, then the Danes were in
the
> Ukraine".
>
> Torsten
You've aroused my curiosity, so I've checked Saxo's text at last.
Well so then...
A.
2.1.2-2.1.3. Frotho fights and defeats a giant snake. The place can
hardly be localized ('Insula non longe est...').
2.1.4-2.1.5 Then Frotho makes war on Dorno, king of *Curetes (G. pl.
Curetum). Since N. sing. could be reconstructed as *Cures, this
people
could be reliably identified with Baltic Curonians (cf. Lith. N.
sing. kur~s^is). Curonians occupied the Baltic cost of what is
today's Central and North Lithuania and Latvia.
2.1.6 'Inde profectus in Trannonem Rutenae gentis tyrannum incidit;
cuius maritimas copias speculaturus crebros clavos ex fustibus creat
iisdemque carabum onerat. ... Ambiguum erat, ferrum magis an fretum
officeret'.
From what we can conclude:
a. Rutenae lived somewhere not far from Curonians
b. A sea was the battle area.
c. (not relevant anymore, still) *Tranno can hardly be etymologized
on a Slavic basis. Any suggestions for a Germanic etymology?
... So we can conclude THESE Rutenae lived on or near the Baltic
cost. Far from Ukraine, anyway.
2.1.7. Saxo narrates that Frotho returned home. Then, he continues,
Ruscia refused to pay a tribute to him and he had to fight against
its king Vespasius (looks like < Baltic *Veis^patis 'lord') in towns
named Rotala and Paltisca (probably < Old Russian [Slavic!]
PolotIskU, occupied by Baltic Yotvingians [Suduvians] at the time).
Even if we assume Ruscia = Ruthenia (what yet must be proved), and
that *Tranno fell in the battle, PolotIskU is still not Ukraine, yet
much closer to Dnieper than the Baltic cost. This is the last (and
little) chance to save your theory.
B.
5.7.1. - 5.7.6. Huns, allied with Olimarus (certainly Germanic
name), 'rex Orientalium', confront with Frotho. Huns concentrate
their forces on land, while Olimarus - in the sea 'haud procul
Ruscia' (?, do you know any sea near Dnieper?). Frotho
meets 'Rutenorum' fleet's advance-guard not far from 'insulae, quae
Daniam Orientemque interiacent'. Then he advances (somewhere) and
defeates the main 'Rutenorum' forces of Olimarus and Dagus (another
non-Slavic name), who themselves were killed. No clear geografical
indications.
Why Dnieper? (Why Slavs?)
Sergei