--- In cybalist@..., "Piotr Gasiorowski" <gpiotr@...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: tgpedersen@...
> To: cybalist@...
> Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 12:53 PM
> Subject: [tied] Re: Language - Area - Routes
>
> >> The North Sea approach is indeed difficult, but here continuity
existed
> on land, with a network of similar dialects reaching down the neck
of
> Jutland into Mecklenburg, Lower Saxony and Frisia.
>
> > And where, pray tell, is the evidence for that?
>
> The lack of significant regional differentiation in late NW
Germanic is
> demonstrated by the Early Runic inscriptions. Before ca. AD 600
(that is,
> before the period of syncopes, umlauts, assimilations, unification
of verbal
> endings etc.) we have virtually the same language in what are now
northern
> Germany, Denmark, the Scanian provinces of Sweden and Norway. Early
Runic is
> often called "Proto-Nordic", but it could with equal justice be
called
> Proto-West-Germanic. It actually gives us some idea of what the
common
> ancestor of both groups looked like.
>
> > You are presupposing what you set out to prove. Where is your
evidence for
> "expansion of the Danes"?
> It is true that there have been found the remains of bog sacrifice
of
> weapons from many battles at that time, but from that to concluding
that an
> invasion had succeeded, there is a long jump.
>
> OK, what's your alternative story, and what's the evidence for
it? "Denmark"
> became known as such in the ninth century, and the name may be
interpreted
> as "the borderland of the Danes". I'll find some references to
> archaeological sources.
Sorry. You're right. I was wrong.
I just located Dan Hemming (obviously a pseudonym): "Guldhornenes
Tale", where I got the idea (of the Danes coming from "the rivers",
originally). This is his theory:
The Danes are an IndoEuropean "urfolk" originally living in the land
of the Dan-rivers, Scythia. In the remote past they have sent
contingents to Hellas and Palestine (the Dan tribe).
After centuries of fighting with the Slavic Ruthenians, they withdraw
to the land south of the Gulf of Finland, (Øsel < Ø-syssel,
the "syssel" division is otherwise only found in Jutland,
eg. "Himbersysæl", "Thythæsysæl", "Harthesysæl"), leaving some behind
(Thitmar of Merseburg: "swift-footed Danes", about the inhabitants of
Kiyiv.
After the Hun onslaught they flee, after 375.
The North Danes flee to Sweden, where they are given areas to settle
in Ångermanland and Dalecarlia (Danviken in Lake Mälar, the village
of Sjælland, and the parish of Danmark in Ångermanland, Dannemora in
Dalecarlia (Mora was the place of the "thing" of the Svear)). They
become rather unpopular.
The South Danes flee to the south west, joining up with the
Hreidgoter (Danzig "Dan-vic-"(you probably have a lot to say on that
one), Dänische Wiek at Greifswald, Dänholm at Stralsund). They conquer
Jutland and Fyn, and send for the North Danes, who travel to the area
around present-day Göteborg (Dansø, earlier Danholm), spreading to the
south, eventually conquering two independent kingdoms, one on
Sjælland, one in Skåne.
This is the short version, of course. The full version is some twenty
pages. But it seems, in this version, that the Danes came from the
North, as you said.
>
> > Did you also discuss how they managed to keep the *d-n- etc
people from
> spreading into the Baltic river systems all those thousands of
years ;-)
>
> It took some time for economic macroregions to form in the wake of
the
> initial Neolithicisation of Europe. There was surely some
competition, too.
> Pre-Proto-Germanic traders may have found the best routes already
> monopolised and jealously controlled by other peoples.
And then, they may not.
>Central Europe was not a vacuum, you know.
Now it's my time to wonder: When did I say that? It has of course been
an eternal struggle to keep the river open to your own ships, with
temporary and permanent setbacks. One interesting thing: wherever the
Vikings go, they tear down bridges crossing rivers, as if they offend
them. London, Paris.
[snip]
In Viking times, it seems Scandinavians avoided the direct route,
preferring the route via Novgorod. This would indicate the direct
route was blocked to them. Maybe it was so earlier, too. The fact
that there are four -itse place names on Lolland and Falster, plus
several Vindeby's (also South Fyn), and a Wend shipyard found on the
Fribrødre- (< *pribor-(?)) å on Falster, plus the fact that the
language on the birch bark pieces in Novgorod shows West-slavic
influence might point in the direction of a Wend "conveyor belt" who
would be competitors and therefore would keep out Scandinavians,
forcing them to detour.
[snip]
> Piotr
Torsten