From: Mark Odegard
Message: 5664
Date: 2001-01-21
>EuroAnatolian
> Piotr:
> >Regarding squirrels and raptor birds, I'm not aware of any
>thunderbird
> >folklore in Eastern Europe. Any opinions from other list members?
>
> Eastern Europe? Why should we need to find anything in Eastern
> Europe now? I suspect that the steppe mythology (including the
> squirrel/thunderbird spat) would have spread westward with the
> Early IE until by 6000 BCE when it was digested into the new
> myth that the IEs soon adopted. We would find muchmyth...
> more of a later layer of IE myth in this area rather than steppe
> although there are the Turks.It really is a simple question. Does the Ukranian Steppe experience
> Oh, in case any of you find my statement of a thunderbird myth inThunderbirds are mythologically nice.
> Asia suspect, you can review the following:
>http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/4/0,5716,74214+1+72327,00.ht
>world,
> Gee, that reminds me, I'd forgotten all about the woodpecker...
>
> Joao:
> >The association of fire with red squirrels it's interesting. But
>there's
> >also a strong link with birds (remember Loki and Agni) - a
>bird-shaped god
> >who steals the fire (or nectar) is a well-defined >myth around the
> >it's hard to say if it's some kind of >universal tale or have somemore
> >specific geographic context."general" to
>
> I simply can't believe that an entire tale with some specific
> features that I've mentioned is "universal". Saying that it is
> certain areas would be a better assessment. Whatequation
> fire-stealing birds exactly? Do they actually _steal_ the fire
> and can it be traced back to IE myth, which is what we're really
> concentrating on here?
>
> We know that the tricky little Loki appears as a million and
> one things - mare, salmon, falcon, American politics, '76 Pinto,
> yadayadayada. You have to remember that IE Fire appears to be
> a shape-shifter at times... which again kinda relates to
> ideas on sexuality, "role-reversal" and the IE idea of "disguise"
> of any kind as a symbol of evil (wolf & criminality). Possibly,
> fire as a shapeshifter was evil but when found in true form it
> was benevolent? I dunno, just thoughts.
>
> At any rate, while this shapeshifting fire could symbolically be
> found in any form, there does seem to be a particularly strong
> between rats, mice or squirrels and the concept of Fire"sciurid",
> as both healer and bringer of plague across Eurasian myths
> including in the IE mythos. It would appear to be an ancient
> theme stemming from Asia. The bird association doesn't appear
> to be as homogeneous a symbol of fire, afaik.
>
> Is fire as polymorphic in Asia as it ends up being in Europe?
> I'm skeptical that fire was a shape-shifter or even a bird in
> earlier prehistoric steppe mythologies. As I say, he may have
> had one form: the "squirrel" (or as Piotr advises, either the
> bobac or the steppe marmot). I take it that the shapeshifting
> quality of Fire arises from the idea that fire is a
> multi-realm entity - existing in the sky, on earth & in the
> underworld or waters - and hence a traveller between realms like
> the squirrel running up and down the Yggdrasil, a deity of
> many forms. The association of different forms with different
> realms, I would argue, derives clearly from the tripartitive
> Old European system and indeed we see mischief/fire
> gods of the "travelling Hermes" sort, across Europe.
>
> So, we see the tripartitive, polymorphic, Old European
> creatrix-preservatrix-destructrix fire myths and the mischievous
> thunderbird-rivalling, fire-from-the-sky-stealing,thunderbird
> Asian fire myths blending together quite nicely, n'est-ce pas?
> Oh come on! You know I'm right!
>
> PS: Our Loki would appear to have many other forms, including a
> mischievous cat, angry against vacuum-cleaners... Enjoy :)
>
> http://www.radix.net/~bungalow/Loki.html
>
> Mark O:
> >gLeNny-poo writes:
> >>Teehee! Thoughts? Anyone recommend a good mental asylum?
> >[...]
> >
> >A good question. Does the Steppe have thunderboomers like the
>American
> >Midwest/Great Plains?
>
> gLeNny-poo, huh? Reminds of elementary school when this bully
> picked on me often, calling me that. I was always a child smaller
> than the rest thanks to my good-for-nothin' Irish genetics, and
> so I couldn't do anything about it but listen to the spoiled
> brat.... That's why I lift weights now. I'm just waitin' for
> someone to piss me off now >:)
>
> Don't know what kind of thunderstorms you're gettin' over there,
> Mark. I don't think Winnipeg gets those "10-cubic-inch" storms
> like you do and yet it resides in the middle of the prairies,
> right in the very center of North America. At any rate, I don't
> think you need these microstorms to be inspired to develop a
> myth anyways. Our thunderboomers can and often areAn angry bird is quite possible. It's something you actually see.
> very violent, with strong winds, torrential downpours and
> hail at times. Seeing that alone would make anyone believe that
> there's some angry bird lettin' loose up there.
>
> - gLeN