Piotr:
>Regarding squirrels and raptor birds, I'm not aware of any >thunderbird
>folklore in Eastern Europe. Any opinions from other list members?
Eastern Europe? Why should we need to find anything in Eastern
Europe now? I suspect that the steppe mythology (including the
squirrel/thunderbird spat) would have spread westward with the
Early IE until by 6000 BCE when it was digested into the new EuroAnatolian
myth that the IEs soon adopted. We would find much
more of a later layer of IE myth in this area rather than steppe myth...
although there are the Turks.
Oh, in case any of you find my statement of a thunderbird myth in
Asia suspect, you can review the following:
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/4/0,5716,74214+1+72327,00.html?query=asian%20mythology%20thunderbird
Gee, that reminds me, I'd forgotten all about the woodpecker...
Joao:
>The association of fire with red squirrels it's interesting. But >there's
>also a strong link with birds (remember Loki and Agni) - a >bird-shaped god
>who steals the fire (or nectar) is a well-defined >myth around the world,
>it's hard to say if it's some kind of >universal tale or have some more
>specific geographic context.
I simply can't believe that an entire tale with some specific
features that I've mentioned is "universal". Saying that it is "general" to
certain areas would be a better assessment. What
fire-stealing birds exactly? Do they actually _steal_ the fire
and can it be traced back to IE myth, which is what we're really
concentrating on here?
We know that the tricky little Loki appears as a million and
one things - mare, salmon, falcon, American politics, '76 Pinto,
yadayadayada. You have to remember that IE Fire appears to be
a shape-shifter at times... which again kinda relates to
ideas on sexuality, "role-reversal" and the IE idea of "disguise"
of any kind as a symbol of evil (wolf & criminality). Possibly,
fire as a shapeshifter was evil but when found in true form it
was benevolent? I dunno, just thoughts.
At any rate, while this shapeshifting fire could symbolically be
found in any form, there does seem to be a particularly strong equation
between rats, mice or squirrels and the concept of Fire
as both healer and bringer of plague across Eurasian myths
including in the IE mythos. It would appear to be an ancient
theme stemming from Asia. The bird association doesn't appear
to be as homogeneous a symbol of fire, afaik.
Is fire as polymorphic in Asia as it ends up being in Europe?
I'm skeptical that fire was a shape-shifter or even a bird in
earlier prehistoric steppe mythologies. As I say, he may have
had one form: the "squirrel" (or as Piotr advises, either the
bobac or the steppe marmot). I take it that the shapeshifting
quality of Fire arises from the idea that fire is a
multi-realm entity - existing in the sky, on earth & in the
underworld or waters - and hence a traveller between realms like
the squirrel running up and down the Yggdrasil, a deity of
many forms. The association of different forms with different
realms, I would argue, derives clearly from the tripartitive
Old European system and indeed we see mischief/fire
gods of the "travelling Hermes" sort, across Europe.
So, we see the tripartitive, polymorphic, Old European
creatrix-preservatrix-destructrix fire myths and the mischievous "sciurid",
thunderbird-rivalling, fire-from-the-sky-stealing,
Asian fire myths blending together quite nicely, n'est-ce pas?
Oh come on! You know I'm right!
PS: Our Loki would appear to have many other forms, including a
mischievous cat, angry against vacuum-cleaners... Enjoy :)
http://www.radix.net/~bungalow/Loki.html
Mark O:
>gLeNny-poo writes:
>>Teehee! Thoughts? Anyone recommend a good mental asylum?
>[...]
>
>A good question. Does the Steppe have thunderboomers like the >American
>Midwest/Great Plains?
gLeNny-poo, huh? Reminds of elementary school when this bully
picked on me often, calling me that. I was always a child smaller
than the rest thanks to my good-for-nothin' Irish genetics, and
so I couldn't do anything about it but listen to the spoiled
brat.... That's why I lift weights now. I'm just waitin' for
someone to piss me off now >:)
Don't know what kind of thunderstorms you're gettin' over there,
Mark. I don't think Winnipeg gets those "10-cubic-inch" storms
like you do and yet it resides in the middle of the prairies,
right in the very center of North America. At any rate, I don't
think you need these microstorms to be inspired to develop a thunderbird
myth anyways. Our thunderboomers can and often are
very violent, with strong winds, torrential downpours and
hail at times. Seeing that alone would make anyone believe that
there's some angry bird lettin' loose up there.
- gLeN
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