Re: [tied] PIE dorsals

From: Piotr Gasiorowski
Message: 4976
Date: 2000-12-08

----- Original Message -----
From: Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
To: cybalist@egroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 2:10 AM
Subject: Re: [tied] PIE dorsals

>But such a change is trivial, especially considering the palatalized velar had no support from anywhere else in the phonological system. It may well have happened independently several times over.
 
True, but it's a bit suspect that it happened everywhere in the same way. Even Satem developments, despite a common starting point, proceeded in different ways. *KW had no systemic support either but somehow managed to get along. Is *K^ > *K really so trivial that it should have happened over and over again, four or five times? Why was Satem affrication (by far the most common trajectory for palatovelars) restricted to a contiguous group of dialects? Why don't we ever find *K^ > *Kj- (also a good way of eliminating a marked series) parallel to *KW > *Kw?
 


Looking further towards the chapter on Anatolian in Ramat & Ramat (by Silvia Luraghi), I find HLuw. zurni- "horn";  HLuw azu(wa)- "horse" (Lyc. esbe), Lyc. sñta "100 (1000?)", none of them explicable by the effect of neighbouring front vowels (and Luraghi further adds that *k before *i > zero in Luwian/Lycian, without examples).

I'll deal with these in a separate posting. they may be worth a separate thread.
 


>What Thracian and Phrygian (and the second hand information on Illyrian:
centum or satem?) seem to show is that the palato-velars were maintained as such (without assibilating) until classical times, judging by spellings such as Gord- and Zord- (/g^ord-/?).
 
I don't think Thracian and Phrygian (or Armenian and Phrygian) were closely related. Judging from onomastic evidence, Thracian was fully Satemic (it also shared some features with Albanian and the languages of Northern Europe, e.g. *sr- > *str-). Examples of Phrygian sibilants from IE dorsals are found before front vowels (zeuman < *g^heu-mn 'fountain', etc.) but not elsewhere, which shows that Phrygian was no more Satemic than French is.
 


>I'm not so sure *K's are as rare as all that.  Just as an experiment, I counted almost half the Sanskrit entries starting with k- (the ka- and ka:-'s, as a matter of fact) in the index to IEW, for a total of 175 words and morphemes.  19 of them were only referred to from outside the *k/*k^ or *kw pages.  30 were referred to from the *kw pages, 126 from the *k/*k^ pages.  That's four times as many *k-'s as *kw-'s.   I counted 117 Sanskrit forms starting with s'a-/s'a:-. 

>Even if the *k-set
contains more loanwords, onomatopoeia and Pokornian mistakes than the *k^ and *kw sets (which might be true), all it shows is that the unnatural "gap" in the unmarked member (if due to a phonological event in pre-PIE) tended to be filled with borrowings and onomatopoeic formations (I'll leave Pokorny out of this), just as we
would expect (the same happened with the *b gap).
 
Certainly. And the process went on for three thousand years or more, generating new *k-words and strengthening the incidence of the unmarked phoneme until it rose to the level observable in Sanskrit. I'm sure you realise that counting Sanskrit entries tells you something about the relative frequency of "new" and "old" k in (Old) Indic but is not a good approach to estimating the relative frequency of dorsal types in PIE. Note also the methodological bias: any Sanskrit word referred to from the *kW pages is likely to be securely attested (*kW guarantees that a Kentum cognate has been identified), while a large proportion of the *k etymologies are likely to be less rigorously controlled if not outright *kuku.
 
The PIE state of things can be assessed more reliably by inspecting more-or-less complete inventories of uncontroversial etymologies compiled for some common semantic fields, preferably in a work less antiquarian that Pokorny's dictionary. Many such lists can be found e.g. in Mallory and Adams (EIEC). If numbers and animals are not enough, take anything else, e.g. body parts:
 
(a) *k^reh2- 'head', *g^enu 'knee', *g^Hesr 'hand', *bHa:g^u- 'arm' *h1orgHi- 'testicle', *dng^Huh2- 'tongue', *k^erd- 'heart', *smek^-/*smok^wr 'chin/beard', ...
 
(b) *(h)okW- 'eye', *jekWr(t) 'liver' *(h)nogWH- 'nail' (fewer examples but all of good quality).
 
(c) *K is only found in *krep- 'body' (in a "blocking" environment), *pokso- 'side' (which seems to have actually been *pog^-so-, judging from some plausible cognates cited in EIEC), *kok^-so/sah2- 'hollow of a major joint' (dissimilation possible) and a handful of obscure items like *gutr (Lat. 'throat', Hitt. 'nape'), *twek- (?) 'skin' (Gk., Skt., Hitt.?) and *gHelun-ah2- 'lip' (or rather Gk. 'lip', ON 'jaws', Arm. 'palate'). You could say that they outnumber the *KW-words, but to say so is to ignore the fact that they are also far less reliable.
 
As usual, *k^ is robustly attested, *kW is significantly rarer but securely evidenced, and *k is by and large restricted to "fringe" vocabulary.
 

 
>What is Meillet's (or Kortlandt's) explanation for the position before non-syllabic *u (*k^u- vs. *ku- [vs. *kw-])?  Without an original *k^ ~ *k opposition, the reflexes in the different languages become totally incomprehensible (they're difficult enough *with* *k ~ *k^).
 
Why not *kw- : *kWw- (reduced *kWeu-) > *k^w- : *kw-? In some cases we may be dealing with a split. Slavic has the mysterious alternation *sw-/*gw- (*svist-/*gvizd- 'whistle', *svEtja/*gvEzda 'candle/star'), which suggests that expressive voicing was incompatible with satemisation (East and South Slavic *zv- in such words is secondary and dates back to the "second palatalisation"). The Satem opposition *k^w-/*kw- is rare and each example had better be considered on its own right.
 
Piotr