Re: [tied] Re: RELIGION: - Red /// - Indo-Europeans and Semitoids

Arkugal:

>Hugin and Munnin, Thought and Memory. Why must people always talk
>about �creation�?

They may represent the creative force of Odinn perhaps. At least,
originally, this would seem to have been the symbolism since they are
associated with both Creation and Flood (or rather Rebirth) myths.

>Where does Dum�zil says that the warrior caste or the Warrior
>Deities have any connection with the Underworld?

Well, they do now then.

Glen (me):

>Three realms, three functions and hence three pairs of realm-function
> >deity pairs [...]

Arkugal:

>The Underwold would then be represented by the third level,
>the �fertility� one.

How so? I can only see a fertility link with the underworld in association
with Venus, the consort of Mars who is an underworld deity. However, I guess
you'd be looking at *Nepo:t which must surely be of the underworld if not
*PexwrGnnos.

>Yes, but the thunder is not necessarly connected with the Underworld,
>neither is the Warrior God. That's the main subject here.

I've proposed related links to Semitic religion. The association of the
underworld with thunder would imply the order-chaotic scheme between heaven
and hell, an analogical association. The association of the _sky_ with
thunder however would simply be a logical one based on reality and could
arise at any time. Which is older? As I've mentioned, there are Semitic
links almost as ancient as IE myth which agree with the order-chaotic scheme
where thunder and the underworld are connected, implying that this is more
ancient.

>Yes; however, one can think about two different Fire Gods: the
>Underworldly one, such as HEPHAISTOS, and the Overworldly one, such
>as AGNI; does the Fire have any chtonic connection in Iran - ATAR -
>or in the Slavic world - OGONI - or in the Germanic world - LOKI? VE?
>VILI? Perhaps SURTR, at best.

You're adding unnecessary complexity. How do you support this opposition
within any particular mythology? Does such an opposition exist solely within
the confines of Greek myth? Indic myth? Norse myth? I prefer ONE fire god
until we can support this claim.

>Couldn't these influences flow in the opposite way, from IE to
>Semitic?

IE to Semit-ish I would think, but this language largely died out at around
5000 BCE from what I would surmise so...

>Isn't ANU Sumerian? And which is the connection between *Dyeus and
>*Ana?

Maybe, can't tell precisely what his Semitic name might be. It's not so
terribly important so much as the concept and structures I've presented and
the basic logic behind them.

>What about SATURN and Gwou-Xanas? Can you give further elements?

Ereshkigal, perhaps.

>The pair SUN-MOON is too obvious, it does not need any cultural inter-
>influence to be justified;

Granted.

>The pair MARS-VENUS belongs to the Greek Mythology - ARES-APHRODITE,
>while in archaic Roman Tradition there is not such pair.

Also abounding in SumeroAkkadian myth.

>The �pair� JUPITER-SATURN belongs as well to the Greek
>Mythology
>ZEUS-KRONOS
>not to the Archaic Roman one.

Check out http://piney.com/BabGlossA.html#ERESHKIGAL

>So, the Etruscans received an IE influence in this case?

No, Etruscan was a related language to IE coming from the Steppe as
IndoTyrrhenian. As the EtruscoLemnians migrated to the Balkans, they
absorbed independently the SemitoEuropoid myths and combined them with their
Steppe traditions just like the IE. They called their sky god *T:eien
(Etruscan Tin), a related but different term than the IE, still meaning
"Bright One".

>The steppe *T:eien/*T:eieu was based on the IE root *Deiwos, coming
>from the IE root *Dei-, that would express the idea of Brightness
>connected with the Sky?

IE *dei- is attested, and I further surmise an earlier IndoTyrrhenian root
*t:ei- based on Etruscan.

>Where is it stated thjat white was a symbol of death for the
>Europeans?

I'll trudge up tomorrow Gimbutas' materials again to see what exactly she
says. I can't remember offhand. Good question.

- gLeN

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