From: João Simões Lopes Filho
Message: 3766
Date: 2000-09-16
----- Original Message -----
From: <ARKURGAL@...>
To: <cybalist@egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2000 2:03 PM
Subject: [tied] Re: RELIGION: - Red /// - Indo-Europeans and Semitoids
>
> --- In cybalist@egroups.com, "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@...> wrote:
> >
> > Arkugal:
> > > - You say that the red is connected with the Underworld, and the
> > >warriors are thus linked with this realm: but what is the
> connection
> > >between the Underworld and Deities such as MARS, THOR, TYR, INDRA,
> > >ARES, ATHENA, PERKUNAS, PERUN?... Aren't all this Deities precisely
> > >uranic?
> >
> > There isn't an underworld connection when it comes to Thor
>
> Good. THOR is the Warrior God within the Northern Tradition.
>
> /Tyr (from *Dye:us
> > "the ruler of the Overworld") or Athena (from *Wa:tnos "the wise
> one-eyed
> > priest"). Those two are associated with the sky and therefore mixed
> up with
> > European symbols associated with creation such as the bird
> (Remember the two
> > birds in Norse myth called "Memory" and...? gee, I forgot the other
> one).
>
> Hugin and Munnin, Thought and Memory. Why must people always talk
> about «creation»?
>
>
> > Mars-Indra/Parjanya-Perkunas-Perun-Fjo"rgyn is the deity set in
> question.
> > These gods all are linked to the warrior caste in IE myth and
> therefore
> > linked as well to the underworld via Dumezil's tripartition.
>
> Where does Dumézil says that the warrior caste or the Warrior
> Deities
> have any connection with the Underworld?
>
>
> > Three realms,
> > three functions and hence three pairs of realm-function deity pairs
> (cf.
> > *Dye:us "Overworld" & *Wa:tnos "Priest"; *Yemos "Middleworld" &
> *Manus
> > "Commoner"; *Nepo:t "Underworld" & Pexwr-Gnnos "Warrior"). This
> > three-function/realm structure is certainly present in IE myths and
> is the
> > inspiration for the three-headed serpent (one represents the
> priest, one the
> > commoner and one the warrior).
>
> The Underwold would then be represented by the third level,
> the «fertility» one.
>
>
> > In Norse myth, Fjo"rgyn is the mother of Thor but this is certainly
> a
> > secondarily created relationship. The rest of these gods are all
> related to
> > thunder and storms. Thunder can be linked with the sky, yes, but it
> is a
> > _destructive_ force nonetheless. Storms are linked with Poseidon
> (an
> > underworld god) and these weather phenomena tend to be destructive
> and
> > chaotic, another underworld characteristic. At this point, it might
> be
> > important to mention the battles between Horus "sky" and
> Seth "storm" in
> > Egyptian mythology.
>
> Yes, but the thunder is not necessarly connected with the Underworld,
> neither is the Warrior God. That's the main subject here.
>
>
> > Further, the name of this war-god is reconstructed as *Perkunos
> according to
> > Mallory because of the readily visible phonetic similarities seen
> above but
> > it could also be more credibly reconstructed as *Pexwr-Gnnos "Fire-
> Born". I
> > feel this name links him with a Semitoid concept of a firey
> underworld where
> > he, (perhaps named *Ba'ala in Semitish?) was the ruler of the sheol
> > Underworld of fire. Another reality-based source for his IE name
> would come
> > from his very early association with Mars, a planet that can be
> seen by the
> > naked eye to have a ruddy tint (red=chaos=bloodshed/war).
>
> Yes; however, one can think about two different Fire Gods: the
> Underworldly one, such as HEPHAISTOS, and the Overworldly one, such
> as AGNI; does the Fire have any chtonic connection in Iran - ATAR -
> or in the Slavic world - OGONI - or in the Germanic world - LOKI? VE?
> VILI? Perhaps SURTR, at best.
>
>
>
> > > - What proofs exist of semitic influence in the IE traditions?
> >
> > There are many good linguistical connections between Semitic (via
> Semitish)
> > and IE. However, I'm starting to realise that many of these words
> were so
> > succesfully borrowed into IndoEuropean primarily because of the
> magical and
> > religious connotations that they held in addition to agricultural
> ones.
>
> Couldn't these influences flow in the opposite way, from IE to
> Semitic?
>
>
> > Semitish *napis^s^a "breathe/air" (Semitic *napis^tu)
> > MidIE *nebese (IE *nebhes-)
> > - The physical element associated with the Overworld
>
> What element? In which languages?
>
>
> > Semitish *ba`ra "fire", *[b`r] "to burn"
> > MidIE *pexwere (IE *pexwr)
> > (-> FU pa"iva" "warmth")
> > - The physical element associated with the Underworld
>
>
> > Semitish *awila "man" (Akkadian /awilu/)
> > MidIE *weire (IE *weiro-)
> > - Humankind, especially, in relation to the creation myth
> >
> >
> > Semitish *s^iksa "six" (Semitic *s^idTu)
> > MidIE *swekse (IE *sweks)
> > (also Kartvelian *wekws-, Etruscan /s'a/)
> > - For starters, the number of planetary bodies in the sky
> > minus the great *XWewi-De:ru "World-Tree, Sirius".
> >
> > Semitish IndoEuropean
> > ----------------------------------
> > Sun *S^amas^a *Sxwe:l
> > Moon *S^ina *Me:n
> >
> > Venus *`Astarta *Xste:r
> > Mars *Ba'ala *Pexwr-Gnnos
>
> Does BAAL have any connection with war? Was He a Semitic MARS? And
> what is common between *Pexwr-Gnnos and *Ba'ala?
>
>
> > Jupiter *Ana *Dyeus
> > Saturn ? *Gwou-Xanas
>
> Isn't ANU Sumerian? And which is the connection between *Dyeus and
> *Ana?
>
> What about SATURN and Gwou-Xanas? Can you give further elements?
>
>
> > - Note that they are seperated into meaningful pairs...
>
> The pair SUN-MOON is too obvious, it does not need any cultural inter-
> influence to be justified;
> The pair MARS-VENUS belongs to the Greek Mythology - ARES-APHRODITE,
> while in archaic Roman Tradition there is not such pair.
> The «pair» JUPITER-SATURN belongs as well to the Greek
> Mythology
> ZEUS-KRONOS
> not to the Archaic Roman one.
>
>
> > Semitish *s^ebtam "the seven" (Semitic *s^eb-)
> > MidIE *septem (IE *septm)
> > (also Kartvelian *s^wid-, Etruscan /sempH/)
> > - The seven planetary bodies in the sky
> > - Associated with Creation myth
> > - Associated with Flood myth
> >
> >
> > Arkugal:
> > >You mentioned *Dei- and the Etruscans when talking about this
> matter. >Can
> > >you explain?
> >
> > The Etruscans knew the bright sky god of the steppes as Tin
> (IndoTyr
> > *T:ei-en "That which is bright") and this god was equated with the
> Roman
> > Jupiter because of their similarity in function.
>
> So, the Etruscans received an IE influence in this case?
>
>
> > >Why should the IE have a religious tradition entirely based on
> other
> > >folks' ways?
> >
> > It wasn't entirely at all! I just finished explaining that IE myth
> was a
> > _fusion_ of three mythological structures.
>
> It is the same! Three OTHER mythological structures.
>
>
> The steppe tradition had
> > *T:eien/*T:eieu "Bright One" as the sky god. This was associated
> with the
> > SemitoEuropoid sky god *Ana
>
> Was there any Semitic, or Europoid God named *Ana? Isn't He purely
> Sumerian?
>
> The steppe *T:eien/*T:eieu was based on the IE root *Deiwos, coming
> from the IE root *Dei-, that would express the idea of Brightness
> connected with the Sky?
> Because that is the meaning of the IE Deities JUPITER, ZEUS,
> DAIPATURES, DIEVS, TYR(ZIU), DYAUS PATER
>
>
> who was already "married off" to the old hag of
> > European religion (the Destructrix of the waters, the serpent)
> because of
> > cross-cultural colour symbolisms (in this case, "white" which was a
> symbol
> > of order to the Semitoids but a symbol of death to the Europeans,
>
> Where is it stated thjat white was a symbol of death for the
> Europeans?
>
>
> > The Early IndoEuropeans, already having a sky god called *T:eien,
> simply
> > considered *Ana as equivalent.
>
> EQUIVALENCE...that is different.
>
>
> >Thus came all the MiddleEastern and European
> > associations that came with it. This process of cross-cultural
> mythological
> > coordination (<-- cool term, huh?) is the same used by Greeks and
> Romans
> > whose mythologies had also assimilated together because of
> perceived
> > connections by its peoples (Mars with Ares, for instance).
> >
> >
> > - gLeN
> >
> >
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