From: João Simões Lopes Filho
Message: 3756
Date: 2000-09-16
----- Original Message -----
From: Glen Gordon <glengordon01@...>
To: <cybalist@egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2000 4:12 AM
Subject: Re: [tied] Re: RELIGION: - Red /// - Indo-Europeans and Semitoids
>
>
> Arkugal:
> > - You say that the red is connected with the Underworld, and the
> >warriors are thus linked with this realm: but what is the connection
> >between the Underworld and Deities such as MARS, THOR, TYR, INDRA,
> >ARES, ATHENA, PERKUNAS, PERUN?... Aren't all this Deities precisely
> >uranic?
>
> There isn't an underworld connection when it comes to Thor/Tyr (from
*Dye:us
> "the ruler of the Overworld") or Athena (from *Wa:tnos "the wise one-eyed
> priest"). Those two are associated with the sky and therefore mixed up
with
> European symbols associated with creation such as the bird (Remember the
two
> birds in Norse myth called "Memory" and...? gee, I forgot the other one).
>
> Mars-Indra/Parjanya-Perkunas-Perun-Fjo"rgyn is the deity set in question.
> These gods all are linked to the warrior caste in IE myth and therefore
> linked as well to the underworld via Dumezil's tripartition. Three realms,
> three functions and hence three pairs of realm-function deity pairs (cf.
> *Dye:us "Overworld" & *Wa:tnos "Priest"; *Yemos "Middleworld" & *Manus
> "Commoner"; *Nepo:t "Underworld" & Pexwr-Gnnos "Warrior"). This
> three-function/realm structure is certainly present in IE myths and is the
> inspiration for the three-headed serpent (one represents the priest, one
the
> commoner and one the warrior).
>
> In Norse myth, Fjo"rgyn is the mother of Thor but this is certainly a
> secondarily created relationship. The rest of these gods are all related
to
> thunder and storms. Thunder can be linked with the sky, yes, but it is a
> _destructive_ force nonetheless. Storms are linked with Poseidon (an
> underworld god) and these weather phenomena tend to be destructive and
> chaotic, another underworld characteristic. At this point, it might be
> important to mention the battles between Horus "sky" and Seth "storm" in
> Egyptian mythology.
>
> Further, the name of this war-god is reconstructed as *Perkunos according
to
> Mallory because of the readily visible phonetic similarities seen above
but
> it could also be more credibly reconstructed as *Pexwr-Gnnos "Fire-Born".
I
> feel this name links him with a Semitoid concept of a firey underworld
where
> he, (perhaps named *Ba'ala in Semitish?) was the ruler of the sheol
> Underworld of fire. Another reality-based source for his IE name would
come
> from his very early association with Mars, a planet that can be seen by
the
> naked eye to have a ruddy tint (red=chaos=bloodshed/war).
>
> > - What proofs exist of semitic influence in the IE traditions?
>
> There are many good linguistical connections between Semitic (via
Semitish)
> and IE. However, I'm starting to realise that many of these words were so
> succesfully borrowed into IndoEuropean primarily because of the magical
and
> religious connotations that they held in addition to agricultural ones.
>
> Semitish *napis^s^a "breathe/air" (Semitic *napis^tu)
> MidIE *nebese (IE *nebhes-)
> - The physical element associated with the Overworld
>
>
> Semitish *ba`ra "fire", *[b`r] "to burn"
> MidIE *pexwere (IE *pexwr)
> (-> FU pa"iva" "warmth")
> - The physical element associated with the Underworld
>
>
> Semitish *awila "man" (Akkadian /awilu/)
> MidIE *weire (IE *weiro-)
> - Humankind, especially, in relation to the creation myth
>
>
> Semitish *s^iksa "six" (Semitic *s^idTu)
> MidIE *swekse (IE *sweks)
> (also Kartvelian *wekws-, Etruscan /s'a/)
> - For starters, the number of planetary bodies in the sky
> minus the great *XWewi-De:ru "World-Tree, Sirius".
>
> Semitish IndoEuropean
> ----------------------------------
> Sun *S^amas^a *Sxwe:l
> Moon *S^ina *Me:n
>
> Venus *`Astarta *Xste:r
> Mars *Ba'ala *Pexwr-Gnnos
>
> Jupiter *Ana *Dyeus
> Saturn ? *Gwou-Xanas
>
> - Note that they are seperated into meaningful pairs...
>
> Semitish *s^ebtam "the seven" (Semitic *s^eb-)
> MidIE *septem (IE *septm)
> (also Kartvelian *s^wid-, Etruscan /sempH/)
> - The seven planetary bodies in the sky
> - Associated with Creation myth
> - Associated with Flood myth
>
>
> Arkugal:
> >You mentioned *Dei- and the Etruscans when talking about this matter.
>Can
> >you explain?
>
> The Etruscans knew the bright sky god of the steppes as Tin (IndoTyr
> *T:ei-en "That which is bright") and this god was equated with the Roman
> Jupiter because of their similarity in function.
>
> >Why should the IE have a religious tradition entirely based on other
> >folks' ways?
>
> It wasn't entirely at all! I just finished explaining that IE myth was a
> _fusion_ of three mythological structures. The steppe tradition had
> *T:eien/*T:eieu "Bright One" as the sky god. This was associated with the
> SemitoEuropoid sky god *Ana who was already "married off" to the old hag
of
> European religion (the Destructrix of the waters, the serpent) because of
> cross-cultural colour symbolisms (in this case, "white" which was a symbol
> of order to the Semitoids but a symbol of death to the Europeans, hence
the
> "marriage" concept).
>
> The Early IndoEuropeans, already having a sky god called *T:eien, simply
> considered *Ana as equivalent. Thus came all the MiddleEastern and
European
> associations that came with it. This process of cross-cultural
mythological
> coordination (<-- cool term, huh?) is the same used by Greeks and Romans
> whose mythologies had also assimilated together because of perceived
> connections by its peoples (Mars with Ares, for instance).
>
>
> - gLeN
>
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