Arkugal:
> - You say that the red is connected with the Underworld, and the
>warriors are thus linked with this realm: but what is the connection
>between the Underworld and Deities such as MARS, THOR, TYR, INDRA,
>ARES, ATHENA, PERKUNAS, PERUN?... Aren't all this Deities precisely
>uranic?
There isn't an underworld connection when it comes to Thor/Tyr (from *Dye:us
"the ruler of the Overworld") or Athena (from *Wa:tnos "the wise one-eyed
priest"). Those two are associated with the sky and therefore mixed up with
European symbols associated with creation such as the bird (Remember the two
birds in Norse myth called "Memory" and...? gee, I forgot the other one).
Mars-Indra/Parjanya-Perkunas-Perun-Fjo"rgyn is the deity set in question.
These gods all are linked to the warrior caste in IE myth and therefore
linked as well to the underworld via Dumezil's tripartition. Three realms,
three functions and hence three pairs of realm-function deity pairs (cf.
*Dye:us "Overworld" & *Wa:tnos "Priest"; *Yemos "Middleworld" & *Manus
"Commoner"; *Nepo:t "Underworld" & Pexwr-Gnnos "Warrior"). This
three-function/realm structure is certainly present in IE myths and is the
inspiration for the three-headed serpent (one represents the priest, one the
commoner and one the warrior).
In Norse myth, Fjo"rgyn is the mother of Thor but this is certainly a
secondarily created relationship. The rest of these gods are all related to
thunder and storms. Thunder can be linked with the sky, yes, but it is a
_destructive_ force nonetheless. Storms are linked with Poseidon (an
underworld god) and these weather phenomena tend to be destructive and
chaotic, another underworld characteristic. At this point, it might be
important to mention the battles between Horus "sky" and Seth "storm" in
Egyptian mythology.
Further, the name of this war-god is reconstructed as *Perkunos according to
Mallory because of the readily visible phonetic similarities seen above but
it could also be more credibly reconstructed as *Pexwr-Gnnos "Fire-Born". I
feel this name links him with a Semitoid concept of a firey underworld where
he, (perhaps named *Ba'ala in Semitish?) was the ruler of the sheol
Underworld of fire. Another reality-based source for his IE name would come
from his very early association with Mars, a planet that can be seen by the
naked eye to have a ruddy tint (red=chaos=bloodshed/war).
> - What proofs exist of semitic influence in the IE traditions?
There are many good linguistical connections between Semitic (via Semitish)
and IE. However, I'm starting to realise that many of these words were so
succesfully borrowed into IndoEuropean primarily because of the magical and
religious connotations that they held in addition to agricultural ones.
Semitish *napis^s^a "breathe/air" (Semitic *napis^tu)
MidIE *nebese (IE *nebhes-)
- The physical element associated with the Overworld
Semitish *ba`ra "fire", *[b`r] "to burn"
MidIE *pexwere (IE *pexwr)
(-> FU pa"iva" "warmth")
- The physical element associated with the Underworld
Semitish *awila "man" (Akkadian /awilu/)
MidIE *weire (IE *weiro-)
- Humankind, especially, in relation to the creation myth
Semitish *s^iksa "six" (Semitic *s^idTu)
MidIE *swekse (IE *sweks)
(also Kartvelian *wekws-, Etruscan /s'a/)
- For starters, the number of planetary bodies in the sky
minus the great *XWewi-De:ru "World-Tree, Sirius".
Semitish IndoEuropean
----------------------------------
Sun *S^amas^a *Sxwe:l
Moon *S^ina *Me:n
Venus *`Astarta *Xste:r
Mars *Ba'ala *Pexwr-Gnnos
Jupiter *Ana *Dyeus
Saturn ? *Gwou-Xanas
- Note that they are seperated into meaningful pairs...
Semitish *s^ebtam "the seven" (Semitic *s^eb-)
MidIE *septem (IE *septm)
(also Kartvelian *s^wid-, Etruscan /sempH/)
- The seven planetary bodies in the sky
- Associated with Creation myth
- Associated with Flood myth
Arkugal:
>You mentioned *Dei- and the Etruscans when talking about this matter. >Can
>you explain?
The Etruscans knew the bright sky god of the steppes as Tin (IndoTyr
*T:ei-en "That which is bright") and this god was equated with the Roman
Jupiter because of their similarity in function.
>Why should the IE have a religious tradition entirely based on other
>folks' ways?
It wasn't entirely at all! I just finished explaining that IE myth was a
_fusion_ of three mythological structures. The steppe tradition had
*T:eien/*T:eieu "Bright One" as the sky god. This was associated with the
SemitoEuropoid sky god *Ana who was already "married off" to the old hag of
European religion (the Destructrix of the waters, the serpent) because of
cross-cultural colour symbolisms (in this case, "white" which was a symbol
of order to the Semitoids but a symbol of death to the Europeans, hence the
"marriage" concept).
The Early IndoEuropeans, already having a sky god called *T:eien, simply
considered *Ana as equivalent. Thus came all the MiddleEastern and European
associations that came with it. This process of cross-cultural mythological
coordination (<-- cool term, huh?) is the same used by Greeks and Romans
whose mythologies had also assimilated together because of perceived
connections by its peoples (Mars with Ares, for instance).
- gLeN
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