Re: Gimbutas.

Glen

Right lets go through it point by point.

> First, the dates I associate with the languages spoken of in this
> discussion:
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Nostratic 15,000 BCE

Great! The only Microlithic cultures at this time that fit the bill
were the Halfan and Fakhurian of Egypt (24,000-15,000) and the
Kebaran
of Palestine (18,000-10,500 BCE)

> Early Eurasiatic 12,000 BCE

Great! This was the period of the Belbasi culture of Anatolia
(13,000-10,000) and the Zarzian culture of the Zagros (12,400-8,500).
Glen, can you get it THERE WERE NO MESOLITHIC CULTURES OUTSIDE THE
MIDDLE EAST AT THIS TIME!

> Late Eurasiatic 11,000 BCE

(Ditto) Mesolithic cultures still totally confined to the Middle
East!

> Steppe (central steppes) 9000 BCE

Great! 9,100-8,000 BCE was the time of the Murzak-Koba on the Pontic
Steppes, north of the Black Sea. They showed clear cultural
continuity from Aegean (Franchi cave) and Balkan mesolithic
cultures. At 9,000 BCE the CENTRAL STEPPES WERE ALMOST EMPTY. No
mesolithic cultures have been found there at all. A few late upper
paleolithic remnants left over from the Ice Age have been found.
Glen
check the Alekseev manuscript. EB or any other source they will say
the same! To the south of the central steppes (in Northern Iran and
Southern Turkmenistan the 9,000-5,000 BCE Jeitun culture was found -
north of this in Modern Khurghistan at this period - nothing NADA!)
No mesolithic in Central Steppe yet.

> IndoTyrrhenian (west steppes) 9000-7000 BCE

This would have been Grebenki culture 7-5,500.

> Old IndoEuropean (N of Black) 7000-6000 BCE

Great! Archaeologically this was the time of the 7,000-5,500 BCE
Dneipr-Bug/Dnesitr-Donetz cultures. These are acknowledged as
ancestral to the Srendny-Stog, which Mallory acknowledges as PIE!

> Mid IndoEuropean (Black Sea) 6000-5000 BCE

This was the period in which the central steppes began to be occupied
for the first time by any Mesolithic culture at all. The Hissar
Mesolithic Culture 6,000-4,000 came from out of the Jeitun to the
south east. Developing out of the Hissar culture was the 5,500-3,500
BCE Keltiminar culture which WAS THE FIRST MESOLITHIC CULTURE INTO
THE
ALTAI REGION

> Late IndoEuropean (Black Sea) 5000-4000 BCE

Great - Srendny Stog! and Yamnana fits it like a Glove!

> Tyrrhenian (Balkans) 7000-5000 BCE
> EtruscoLemnian (Balkans) 5000-3000 BCE

Great - this is obviously the Starcevo culture of the Balkans, the
first Neolithic. Unfortunately it shows clear evidence of coming out
of Anatolia but we can argue that elsewhere. You see this as
Semitish. I see it as Etrusco Lemnian too. This saw the
very different Keltiminar mesolithic culture move into the central
and
siberian steppes. They were mesolithic, later becoming increasingly
neolithicised from the south.

>
> AfroAsiatic 12,000 BCE

Great! I agree. In NE Africa this is the 13,000-9,000 Qadan/Isnan
period

> Ber-Sem-Egy. 10,000 BCE

(Ditto)

> Semitoid (Palestine, S Syria) 8000 BCE

Now this is where we part company. This is the period of Natufian
culture, which developed out of the Kebaran (see above). No African
elements of Qadan/Isnian period are found and Natufian was a WHOLLY
INDIGENOUS DEVELOPMENT IN PALESTINE WITH NO AFRICAN ADMIXTURE.

> Semitish (NW & W Anat coast) 8000-5000 BCE

Catal Huyuk and Halicar period. Whilst in the first part there are
Natufian elements, these were very limited to the Beldibi region.
Catal Huyuk was otherwise a wholly indigenous development.

> Semitic (Palestine) 8000-5000 BCE

Again, this period from 8,000 - 6,000 BCE sees NO EGYPTIAN OR AFRICAN
PRESENCE IN THE MIDDLE EAST. This occurs ONLY AFTER 6,000 BCE WITH
THE HARIFIAN PRESENCE IN SINAI AND THE NEGEV SPREADING TO THE MUNHATA
CULTURE OF NORTHERN PALESTINE CIRCA 6,000 BCE.

> -------------------------------------------------------
> SinoDene (C Asia) 11,000 BCE

Glen, this culture would have lasted in Central Asia ubtil the coming
of the Keltiminar Mesolithics at 5,500 BCE

> North SinoDene (central steppes) 9000 BCE
> Old NWC (west steppes/E Black Sea) 9000-5000 BCE
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Caucasic (Lake Van, Zagros) 9000/8000 BCE

Great. This would have been the Kobystan phase of the Zarzian
culture
already mentioned (12,000-8,500 BCE)

> I hope that this list isn't too vague for you.

I hope you can follow the cultures too. Check them up in whatever
sources you can. You will find that they fit and my dates are
correct.

Regarding your

> Prehistory of IE
> ----------------
>
> I remain stern on the origin of IE. It derives from Central Asia

based on

> the linguistics, and linguistics is the main thrust of any

linguistic

> debate, linguistically speaking of course :P Even so, the Semitish

theory

> addresses the emerging agriculture of the Balkans as well as the

reversal of

> direction of cultural influence of the Northern Pontic-Caspian as

being the

> marker for the arrival of the IE from the north.

Glen for this to have happened the Keltiminar Culture Central Asia of
5,500 BCE would have had to travel backwards in time to create the
Murzak-Koba mesolithic cultures in the Black Sea Region. It just
does
not add up!

> IndoEuropean and Boreal languages (Uralic, InuktitutAleut,
> ChukchiKamchatkan), for example, both retain a common and ancient
> subjective/objective conjugation (Steppe: 1ps *-m/*-hW, 2ps

*-t/*-n,
3ps

> *-e/NULL), ultimately derived from the suppletive nature of the

Nostratic

> pronominal system which distinguished between absolutive and

ergative. No

> other languages have this special feature except for languages I

classify as

> deriving from ProtoSteppe.

If this is true, then ProtoSteppe MUST HAVE BEEN THE MURZAK-KOBA
CULTURE OF MESOLITHIC HUNTER FISHERS who spread EAST into the Ural
Region and thence into Siberia fairly late - fusing with Keltiminar
culture! They never came WEST!

This is but one of other connections to
be made

> (common interrogative stems, ultimate lack of grammatical gender

with an

> underlying syntactical opposition between animate and inanimate,

some common

> declensional suffixes, common vocabulary, etc). These Steppe

languages all

> reside to the north and _east_ of IndoEuropean's mainstream

homeland. There

> can be no archaeology good enough to fight a linguistic

substantiation for a

> linguistic theory.

If this was so then the linguistic evidence you point to can be
maintained. But Glen it was a West ---> East movement
not an East ---> West one.

> Now, if we are to further boost this idea with even more

archaelogy,
let's

> first get at the crux of your supposed westward movements that

serve
as a

> popsicle-stick barrier. What criteria are you using to judge them

as
being

> westwards, I wonder.
>
> We all know already that agriculture is a technical innovation that

can

> spread very well _without_ the help of human movement. It is more

dependant

> on cultural contact and climate than anything else. It's a useless

item of

> proof for anything linguistic.

Glen, I am not talking movements of Agriculture. This is movements
of
Mesolithic technologies for toolmaking, hunting and gathering
techniques, fishing technologies etc. i.e. mesolithic, not neolithic.

> How about genetics? Physical anatomy? Are you claiming that the

people of

> the Black Sea area in no way were genetically connected with Asia??

Of course they were, via the Balkans and Anatolia! Check
Cavalli-Sforza's gene frequency maps. Check the dates given to
mesolithic sites, check the nature of tool assemblages. Check
linguistics even! Steppe came out of the Middle East.

> In all, what criteria are you using to assert this westward

movement
if

> agriculture and figurines are insufficient markers? Nichols

supports
a

> Central Asian origin, and Bomhard, with evidence from

Cavalli-Sforza's

> genetic research.

Come on Glen, surely you jest. Cavalli-Sforza's section on Europe
shows clearly (p291) that agriculture moved out of Anatolia,
northwards and then EASTWARDS across the steppe, not westwards as you
maintain (see p291 of the History and Geography of Human Genes).

> Who supports an Anatolian origin for IE? That is, aside from some

crackpots

> like Gamreliwhatchamcallit and Ivanosomething who enjoy twisting

theories to

> suit their own perversions like someone I know. :P

Not I, but I do support the fact that Eurasiatic came out of Anatolia
to occupy the steppes from West to East! Just check the dates!

> In reference to Steppe, John states:
> "[...] you are speaking of the Murzak-Koba culture of my last post
> (9,1-8,000). The mesolithic arrived on the Steppe and Forested

areas

> to the north from the South West, travelling up first through the
> Balkans from Anatolia (13-10,000 Belbasi culture in SW Anatolia, and
> 9,800-5,794 Franchi Cave (Aegean). Belbasi was a Kebaran derived
> culture."
>
> Hmmm, let me give you over to Bomhard who says in "Indo-European

and
the

> Nostratic Hypothesis", all in order to support his Eurasiatic (my
> Proto-Steppe) archaeologically, on page 121:
>
> "The earliest known Neolithic remains in northeastern
> Iran go back to about the seventh millenium BCE. By
> the sixth millenium BCE, Neolithic culture had spread
> into Central Asia - the Neolithic settlement patterns
> and technology (pottery, agriculture, stock breeding,
> etc.) appearing in this area were clearly imported
> from the Middle East (cf. Cavalli-Sforza et al.
> 1994:198)."

Glen the 7-6 millennium BCE is not the 9 millennium BCE that you
speak
of! Agreed. The Jeitun culture in its last phase (6,000 BCE) and
late Keltiminar culture from about 4,000 BCE, show "neolithicization".

But this phase is superceded by the Andronova culture from the West.

> So... Bomhard is dating Central Asia's _NEOLITHIC_ to the _sixth_

millenium,

> claiming that it is from the Middle East (not the Balkans at all)

and even

> using Cavalli-Sforza as back-up. Everyone loves Cavalli-Sforza :)

Glen I claim the same. BUT IT IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED DURING THE
PRECEDING PERIOD BEFORE THE NEOLITHIC. MESOLITHIC CULTURES APPEARED
FIRST IN THE EURPOPEAN STEPPES. ONLY LATER DID THEY APPEAR IN
CENTRAL
ASIA. THE SAME WITH AGRICULTURE.

> Hey, I know! Let's play a game. Take a lookey at Encyclopaedia

Britannica

> online, an encyclopaedia which is in no way more authoratative on

these

> subjects than you are, John. Let's see... Here's a link. Take a

look
at:

>
>

http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/7/0,5716,117307+14+109432,00
.html

OK

> "The Mesolithic-Neolithic era and the settlement of northern
> Siberia started in the 7th to 6th millennia BC--the period
> of climatic optimum in Postglacial times, when forest
> conditions were introduced."

OK. Yes. I agree. It is what I have stated. Zarzian 12,000 ->
Belt
Cave (10,000) -> Jaitun (9,000)-> Hissar (6,000) -> Keltiminar
(5,500) (Glen do you read my posts or not?). But Glen do you know
that
Mesolithic cultures were introduced West of the Urals from 9,000 BCE.
Check it up in EB or any where else.

> The _Mesolithic_ era yet! Siberia! That's way up north for you
> geographically impaired and mucho far away from the Balkans....

Then
it

> continues on the next page:
>
> "The Ural region was linked with the northern Russian and
> western Siberian culture on one hand and with the Aral Sea
> region on the other. Throughout the Neolithic and Bronze
> Age times, two cultural branches were evident: the middle
> Ural (or Shigir) and that of the River Ob Basin."

Glen when do you think the Neolithic and Bronze Ages in this part of
the world occurred? Not 9,000 BCE (Steppe culture)! Nor 7,000 BCE
(Indo-Tyrrhenian)! No Glen, not until 4,500 - 3,500 BCE. These were
(as Mallory shows -) Indo-European peoples .... nothing else.

> Can you explain the Aral Sea part, please? Funny me but I'm not

seeing how

> the Aral Sea is connected with your supposed Balkan influence

(aside
from

> later agricultural influence, of course).

But Glen - Neolithic and Bronze Ages ARE INFLUENCES FROM THE
AGRICULTURAL AGE! Shigir and Ob river peoples were farming/hunting
cultures.

I'm also not seeing how
the

> genetics work in your favor either if Central Asia was really

shaped
by the

> Balkans like you claim.

> Another site of interest which gets even more detailed:
> http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/hpg/cesmg/peopling.html#sec5
>
> It explains some genetic evidence a la Cavalli-Sforza which shows

the

> migration of peoples radiating from, you guessed it, the

Middle-East, right

> into Central Asia.

Agreed Glen! Read my cursor Zarzian -> .... how many times do I need
to write this stuff before you can begin to see what I am saying!

> Miguel Vasquez also gives his views against an out-of-Anatolia

origin. Our

> views are very similar but he's more expressive vis-a-vis the

archaeology:

> http://home.wxs.nl/~mcv/IE.txt
>
> John, you must be one of a handful of individuals even without a

library

> claiming an Anatolian origin for IE or any of the Steppe languages.

IEists

> don't accept it. Uralicists don't accept it. Altaicists, well, they

got

> their own problems right now, but they probably wouldn't accept it

either if

> they had their heads on straight.

Glen, your Central Asian origin for the Steppe Languages just doesn't
add up for the dates. Please, please read something on the
mesolithic
period of Eurasia.

Regarding

> Natufian would be better thought of as speaking "Semitoid", the

ancestral

> language of both Semitic and Semitish, rather than Semitish itself.

Semitish

> would date to after 8000 BCE, growing into disuse by 5000 BCE.
>
> I can't take your thoughts on Natufian at face value. I doubt that

all of

> what you're saying is true, including the Egyptian "Isnian" thing

and that

> there is something more not being said. I'll be researching all

what
you've

> said and will be finding some goodies to throw back at you. Don't

you fret.

Good. I await your evidence. Also, please try to show me that
Natufian came from Afro-Asiatics in Africa. I can already hear the
gaffaws from those who have shown that it developed in situ from the
earlier Kebaran (read EB for example!)

> What I do already know is that there were African influences like

burial

> practices and ancestral worship that popped out into the Middle

East
during

> Natufian times.

Oh yes? Please - I await your evidence! Glen, Natufians decapitated
their dead, to coat their heads with plaster and give them cowrie
shell eyes. This was a local development, not one imported from
Africa. Isnian burial practices were whole of body internments under
the floors of hunter-gatherer settlements, at a far less
sophisticated
level. So much for "African" influences "popping"!

Regards

John