[tied] Re: Formal and Informal 2nd Person

>From: "smith" <andrew.d.smith@...>
>Reply-To: cybalist@egroups.com
>To: <cybalist@egroups.com>
>Subject: [tied] Re: Formal and Informal 2nd Person
>Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 21:13:46 +0100
>
>There are certainly formal and informal forms also in Polish and Latvian.
>But there seems to be a split in how the informal / formal form arises.
>
>The most common pattern is where the formal 2nd person singular is the same
>as 2nd person plural (eg English, French, Russian, Latvian). In modern
>English, the 2nd person informal form (thou) has virtually disappeared. In
>France, on the other hand, the informal "tu" is seeing a come-back among
>young and middle-aged professsionals.
>
>But there's a second pattern, found in Polish and (I'm told) Spanish, where
>the formal form is based on the 3rd person singular (the equivalent of
>"would sir like ...").
>
>I've never figured why some languages shifted one way and some the other -
>it seems to cut across established linguistic boundaries, which points to
>the whole framework being recent innovation (certainly Latin lacks such a
>formal / informal structure). There's no clear geographical pattern or
>Sprachbund effect. But then there seems nothing in terms of social history,
>either, to govern how the formal form arose. After all, what have Poland
>and
>Spain in common that England, Russia and Latvia lack?
>
>And then there's German. 2nd person singular formal based on 3rd person
>plural. Where did that spring from?
>
>And why is God always addressed informally - even in English where other
>uses of "thou" are extinct?
>
>Sorry, no answers from me. But thanks to David for the interesting question
>
>Andrew Smith
>
>

In Frisian (Westerlauwer, as spoken in the Netherlands), both patterns can
be found.
The pronoun is "jo" which is originally the acc form of "ji" (which is now
obsolete, but occurs eg in the Saxon dialects in the Netherlands), made into
a subject form. Originally this was the 2nd p pl. form, but even in Old
Frisian (texts from 13 th century) we find the form "jimma" (Modern
Westerlauwer Frisian "jimme"), originally from "ji + men" (you men, cf also
"you guys" in modern American usage).
(with experienced the -n drop, which is characteristic of Old Frisian, eg in
weak declinations and infinitive endings, so the form is quite old). Maybe
"ji" was already also being used as singular form? (Normal is "thu", Modern
"do"). Note that "jij" in Dutch (originally plural too) is now only 2nd
person informal! 2nd person informal is "jullie", also from some "jij +
lieden =people form)..

But 3rd person address is common in Frisian, eg for relatives (father,
mother, grandfather, but also uncles, and even vicars and doctors):
Wol heit noch in bakje kofje = lit. wants father yet another cup (of)
coffee? etc. This shows respect. Of course address with "jo" is also
possible.
BTW: jo still gets plural conjugation.

Henno Brandsma




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