Re: [cybalist] Re: Hamp and his dog

----- Original Message -----

From: "DEFAYES MICHEL" <mdesfaye@...>

Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 7:37 PM

Subject: Re: [cybalist] Re: Hamp and his dog

Dear Michel,

Wouldn't you agree that by interpreting *kuo:n as 'herder' Hamp refers to the FUNCTION of the dog?

If the name of the dog were of "acoustic" origin, I'd expect it to be "bow-wow" or the like rather than "dog" or "hound"; at least I fail to see in what way the sound of hound is supposed to symbolise the animal's character or function. Your selection of consonantal combinations "expressing" noisiness looks completely arbitrary to me. Why not h-l (howl, hullo, Latin [< Greek] haliaeetus 'sea eagle, osprey') or t-r (Spanish tordo 'thrush', English turkey, Greek tarakhE 'frenzy', tauros 'bull' etc.), or indeed any other pair of consonants?

You don't analyse the examples you list -- you just play with their sound, which is OK if you're a poet but no good if you're a linguist. Some of the terms you quote are obviously onomatopoeic, some are not, quite at random; many are cognates, which accounts for their similarity more realistically than the assumption that they are sound-symbolic. The list is long but also full of errors. Let me correct the Polish examples only, leaving the rest to other interested Cybalist members:

1. The Polish word for the tree pipit (Anthus trivialis) is świergotek (drzewny), not konik 'little horse'; its song sounds like anything but neighing, as far as I know; it could be imitated as "ship-ship" (or something more chirrupy in the nesting season).

2. The standard Polish word for the brambling (Fringilla montifringilla) is jer. Kitajka ("kytajka" isn't a possible Polish word at all) is a plausible dialectal bird name, but not a sound-imitative one: the word means 'something from China' (cf. Cathay, Russian Kitaj 'China'), especially 'a kind of silk cap'. The brambling cock has a conspicuous dark-brown cap, which accounts for "kitajka" (if genuine).

3. "Dukacz" doesn't exist. You probably mean dukać, but it means 'stutter, recite ineptly', definitely not 'to crow'. The Polish word for 'to crow' is piać.

Excuse the diacritics (they are UTF-8-encoded).

Piotr

> In the course of this discussion on kuo:n, no body has ever bothered to ask:

> what is the characteristic of a dog ? All

animals are named after one of

> their characters, or sometimes their

function. The main characteristic of a

> dog is that it is noisy and most

names, dialectal or other, refer to this

> character. Thus the Greek name

should belong to a base of acoustic origin,

> in this case k-n, s-n (dog,

noisy birds or other animals):

>
> English to sound
> English

hound a dog trained to pursue game (while barking); to excite a dog,

> to

harass without respite

> English chinting-hound Black-headed Gull
>

German hund dog

> Latvian sunit invectivate
> Latvian suns

dog

> Armenian Sun id.
> Sanskrit sun id.
> Kafir çuna

id.

> Latvian ku?a id.
> Anc.Greek kyon id.
> French: Foug?res

cun mauvais chien, FEW 20: 7

> French reg. künar chien, FEW 20: 7
>

French reg. cunaud jeune chien, FEW 22: 8

> Anc.Greek kónabos sonorous

noise

> Russian kon horse
> Russian konek Tree Pipit (neighing

song)

> Polish konik Tree Pipit
> Serbo-Croatian konjska sova Tawny

Owl

> Serbo-Croatian konjarica et var. Tree Pipit
> Ukrainian kanjux

Tawny Owl

> Czech konicek Black-headed Gull
> Russian kanyt

Turkey

> Russian kanjucit to neigh
> Serbo-Croatian kanja (Sorabian

id.) Green Woodpecker

> Serbo-Croatian kanja Curlew
> Slavic kanja

Black Kite; Buzzard

> French cagne chien "femelle"
> Romanian câine

dog

> Romanian câine-tâtâresc Lapwing
> Romanian câina to

bark

> Albanian qen dog
> French chien dog
> (etc.)
>
> Other animal names:
> k-t
> English cat a domestic animal

(meows); a woman given to malicious gossip;

> tackle used in hoisting an

anchor

> English catboat a boat having one mast (see catamaran,

hereunder)

> English cat-gull Black-headed Gull
> Spanish: Amer.

cata, catita (widspread from Mexico to Argentina) parrot

> Galician cata

interjection: Spanish ojalá

> French: Saugues cata Buzzard
> French:

Gévaudan cato Kestrel

> French: Norm. cateau Magpie
> French:

I.Maurice cateau parrot

> French: Calv. catacouâ Hooded Crow
>

English chat chattering

> English chatterpie Magpie
> Italian: Piem.

ciattar?n et var. Corn Bunting

> Romanian chiot loud call
> Polish

kytaika Brambling

> English kitty chat; Black-headed Gull
> English

kittiwake Kittywake

>
> k-ts (cat, birds that meow)
> German

katze cat

> German reg. katzenadler Buzzard
> German reg. tunkatz

Whitethroat

> German reg. katzawedl Whitethroat
> Romanian catâ

strident call; backbiter; Guineafowl; chatter of the Magpie

> Romanian

reg. cîtâ Guineafowl

> Romanian câtâi to chirp, to cackle, to

chatter

> Romanian câtâcarâ Magpie
> Romanian ratâ câtârâtoare

Goldeneye,

>
> h-rs
> English hoarse raucous, harsh
>

English horse animal that emits a hoarse call

> English horse-thrush

Mistle Thrush

> English: Ireland horse-ouzel Ring Ouzel
> English

horse-lark Corn Bunting

> English: Scotland arse hen, arseen (for hoarse

hen) Corncrake

> English: Ireland horse-gull Gull
> English

horse-finch Greenfinch

> English: Shetl. horse-sparrow Starling
>

English: Shetl. hoarse-gowk, horse-gowk Snipe

>
> d-k
>

Lithuanian dukas Bittern

> French reg. ducass Eagle Owl
> Sanskrit

dyuka owl

> Serbo-Croatian doktati to sing (Capercaillie)
> Polish

dukacz to crow

> Gaelic: Ireland diucain to moan
> Italian dugo

(Catalan id.) Eagle Owl

> French reg. dógo Turkey
> English dog a

domestic animal (barking is one of its main characteristics)

>
>

(these are only a few terms from a very long list)

> (diacritic marks not

shown)