Odp: [cybalist] Re: */m/ vs. */bh/

From: Piotr Gasiorowski
Message: 2035
Date: 2000-04-04

 
----- Original Message -----
From: Urban Lindqvist <urban.lindqvist@...>
To: <cybalist@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 11:19 PM
Subject: [cybalist] Re: */m/ vs. */bh/

These endings and their syncretism patterns are the IEist's nightmare. What's usually reconstructed for non-Anatolian IE is a mess like this:
 
PLURAL
Gen. -om (consonantal stems); -o:m (in o-stems = contracted -o-om)
Abl./Dat. -bH(j)os, -mos; (-o:is = Instr. in some branches)
Instr. -bHi(:)s, -mis; -o:is
 
DUAL
Gen.(Loc.) -ous; -o:us (= -o-ous)
Abl./Dat./Instr. (-o)-bHjo:(m), (-o)-mo:
 
I don't know of any real evidence for a Dat. pl. : Abl. pl. contrast anywhere (except in Hittite). The falling together of the ablative and the genitive SINGULAR in Baltic & Slavic was accompanied by a general rearrangement of functions, affecting also the corresponding dual and plural forms. Any conclusions concerning the hypothetical pre-merger form of the ablative plural are far too nebulous to be valid. The explanation of the *bH > *m shift mentioned by Glen (influence from the genitive plural) is attractive, though one would have to assume two stages:
 
(1) *-bHis > *-mis, *-bHos > *-mos (influenced by *-om)
(2) Dat./Instr. dual *(-o)-bHjo: > *(-o)-mo: in Balto-Slavic (influenced by pl. *-mis, *-mos); also Instr. sg. *-(o)bHi > *-(o)mi attested in Baltic i/u-stems and generally in Slavic.
 
There's no data for Germanic as regards (2), and (1) seems trivial enough to have happened independently in Germanic and Balto-Slavic (the details of the change differ between the branches anyway). Note that the Instr. pl. *-o:is survives in Balto-Slavic o-stems while it's fate in Proto-Germanic (where a uniform ending was generalised for the syncretic Dat./Instr. case in nouns) is unknown. The argument for *bH > *m (in case endings) being a common Germanic/Balto-Slavic innovation is very skaky indeed.
 
Piotr

 
Urban writes:
 
I seem to recall having read somewhere in a footnote that someone has suggested that the dative and ablative plural originally were distinct in form, i.e. that one of them had *m, the other *bh. Does anyone know who/where, or have I just dreamt it?
If we take this suggestion seriously, what are the odds of finding out which one had *m and which one *bh? (We may safely assume that instrumental had *bh.) No IE branch has an ablative form in the plural that differs from the dative (apart from Hittite, which, however, has an ending of its own, the same as in the sing.). Italic and Indo-Iranian are useless, since both preserves dative and ablative as distinct cases (though not formally in the plural). Germanic isn't very helpful either, since dative and ablative merged both formally and functionally. In Balto-Slavic, however, there are both formal and syntactical indications that the ablative merged with the genitive instead. This might be considered an argument that dative had *m, which was preserved, whereas the old ablative plural ending was lost in favour of the genitive plural ending (somewhat like in Greek). If it had been the other way around, dative *bh and ablative *m, the dative -mU/-ms/etc. would, of course, be more difficult to explain. The as
However, how do we explain *m in the instrumental? Back to influence from the genitive ... Or could it be influence from the dual, where all three cases (as far as we know) where identical? And: why did ablative and dative merge in so many languages?
Also, does anyone know of any evidence for (traces of) a distinct instr. pl. form in Germanic besides Old English thae^m with i-umlaut (*toimis instead of *toibhis), or any other explanation for the Old English form?
Urban Lindqvist