Re: A SinoTibetan-Vasconic Comparison: A very, very, very,verylengt

Alexander:

>You use both terms - "Semitish" and "Semitic". Is there difference >between
>them?

I use "Semitish" as the hypothetical substratum that brought agriculture to
Europe as opposed to "Semitic", being a real, attested entity.

>Would not it be more correct to discuss a possible Afro-Asiatic >influence
>on Vasconic rather than the Semitic/Semitish one? I could >expect rather a
>Berber-like influence (because of pure geographical >reasons).

Well, this is up for debate, however we still need to explain the language
spoken by the early agriculturalists which seem to have come in from
Anatolia. These people could not have spoken "Berberish".

>Are there Semitic or any Afro-Asiatic traces in the ancient European
>toponimics?

I don't know. I know that others have theories on this. I believe there is
an "Atlantic" theory going around.

Alexander:

>As far as I know you believe that Proto-Nostratic community existed
>somewhere in the Near/Middle East and PIE - in the North Pontic >area.

Well now, it would seem that I'm taking John seriously and imagining an
African origin for Nostratic. The PIE homeland though is probably on the
north shores of the Black Sea, yes.

>It is given that IE and Etruscan (Tyrrhenian) are the closest >Nostratic
>brothers. The question - where and when did they parted? >If I understand
>you right, your answer is: Tyrrhenian went from the >North Pontic area c.
>4500 BC when PIE stayed there.
>I'm afraid some difficulties with chronology and archaeology can >arise
>here.

Well, I've narrowed down this Tyrrhenian movement from around 5000 BCE to
3500 BCE so I suppose we can debate about this a little more. I use 4500 BCE
simply because of Kurgan I and because it is a perfectly medial date,
wonderful for my evil linguistic purposes.

>What do you (and other list members) think about the variant with the
>parting of PIE and Proto-Thyrrhenian somewhere in South Caucasus c. >6000
>BC?

6000 BCE seems way too early for Tyrrhenian. According to Alan Bomhard, the
IndoEtruscan speakers would have arrived c. 5000 BCE to the north shores of
the Black Sea. He talks about Kosko and archaeological evidence that shows
that cultural influence spread from the Caucasian-Pontic zone to the
Vistula-Oder area around 7000 BCE. However the direction of the influence
was then later reversed, which he views as a signal of the arrival of the
Pre-IE (or rather, IndoEtruscans) which pushed Caucasian-speaking people
back down south towards the Caucasus. (This is where he cites some iffy
connections between IE and NWC using ProtoCircassian, however his idea may
not be too nutty).

Alexander:

>The Thyrrhenian attestation of them does not
>look improbable. BUT in this case we should expect a relatively high
> >degree of similarity between Etruscan and Kartvelian (the only >Nostratic
>language in the Caucasus are then). Is there any evidence >of this?

But this is the thing, I don't know of any Kartvelian words in Etruscan. One
would expect some loans if either Tyrrhenian moved through the Caucasus as
you say or if Kartvelian had a prolonged contact with IndoEtruscan, neither
of which seems to be the case from what I know. Perhaps this "movement" is
just a mixture of different non-Tyrrhenian languages and cultures. And
besides, if the Tyrrhenian moved by sea, we shouldn't expect to see much in
terms of land archaeology.

- gLeN



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