Re: Semele and Demeter

Dennis wrote in relation to Sabine's post

> I think it was John Croft. I didn't answer because he's probably

right. But

> I'm not claiming exclusivity for the Egyptians, just another source

worth

> investigating.
>
> As for your point about material imports, I'm no expert, but just off

the

> top of my head are some possibilities :
> 1. the nature of the exports/imports. The principal Egyptian export
> certainly throughout classical times was grain. So if we have a trade

of

> grain for ceramics, 3000 years later all that will remain will be the

pots.

Egypt was involved in Grain exports too in the Late Bronze Age as the
records of Ugarit make explicit - in calling for Egyptian grains to
relieve the famine in Anatolia/North Syria that set the Peoples of the
Sea moving. The chief export from Egypt, during the Late Bronze Age
18th - 20th Dynasy was undoubtably gold. The Great Kings of the Late
Bronze Age had an almost inexhaustible lust for gold, and Egypt via the
Eastern Desert and Sudan had seemingly inexhaustable supply.

> 2. conditions for preservation. The Greek and Cretan palaces have

suffered

> some fairly devastating destructions both from invasions and seismic
> activity over the last 3000 years. Egypt on the other hand has been

far more

> stable, plus the construction of funeral and temple complexes allowed

for

> better preservation of ancient artifacts.

I don't think this would explain the disappearance of trade goods
unless they were reworked by local craftsmen (eg. as gold could have
been). I know that it is becoming possible to look at the chemical
signature of various metals, abd by the microcomposition work out where
they derived. It would be interesting to apply this to the Aegean.

> 3. a possible circular (or triangular) trading pattern. Egyptian

sources

> indicate very close relations with Byblos and other Levantine cities,

much

> more so than directly with Crete or Greece. So perhaps there was a

trading

> pattern Egypt > Phoenicia > Greece. What is the situation re

Phoenician

> objects in Greece? This kind of trading pattern is not without

precedent. In

> the 19th century Britain exported to India which exported (mainly

opium) to

> China which exported ceramic ware to Britain. The result is that

Chinese

> ceramic ware became so common in Britain that the word "china" came

to be

> used as a general term for crockery, whereas there would be virutally
> nothing for a future archaeologist to find in China of definite

British

> provenance.

A good point - Aegean aromatic oils to the Levant, Lebanon Cedar timber
to Egypt, and Gold to the Aegean perhaps.

> 4. perhaps because of the mindset of archaeologists who have not

considered

> the possibility of Egyptian influence on Greece, Egyptian object have

not

> been sought, or when found, have not been recognised for what they

are.

No this is not true. The early Archaeologists were all too quick to
see Egyptian influence in the Aegean. Petrie, Evans et al all saw
Egyptian influences in Crete that have since been shown to be falacious.

> 5. (much more contentious) perhaps it is an indication of Egyptian
> suzerainty in that much of the material found in Egypt was received

not in

> trade but as tribute.

All trade between the various Late Bronze Age Kingdoms was disguised as
"tribute" or as "gifts to the king my brother" etc. Egyptian forces
never entered the Aegean and tribute only folowed following military
engagements.

> As I said, this just off the top of my head. Perhaps any one or any
> combination of the above, or other reasons I cannot think of, could be
> responsible for the disparity.
>
> > Also you write:
> >
> > >There is a limestone plaque from Mycenae showing the arms and legs

of a

> > goddess coming out from behind a figure 8 shield, This image has

been seen

> > as an early representation of the Palladion, the standing suit of

armour

> > associated with Pallas Athene.
> > Of course, this may all be coincidence<
> >
> > No, it certainly wasn't because the image of the figure 8 shield

was a

> > popular import from Minoan Crete (at least since Late Minoan

times). So

> > either Athene came from here (e.g. under the name of

a-ta-na-po-ti-ni-ja,

> > although that is still in doubt with Mycenologists because there

are other

> > potniae, too) or you are just wrong ...
> >
> Yes, maybe I'm wrong. But I think I said somewhere, that Egyptian

influence

> on Greece would have been via Crete, not direct. It seems certain

that Crete

> exercised some kind of suzerainty over southern Greece at one stage.
> However, behind Crete, stands Egypt.

Hmm... the Cretian suzerainty story, which has been used to explain the
Theseus myth ad nauseam by novelists, has been largely debunked I
understand. Only in the case of Cythera (the islands to the South of
the Peloponnesse) has a Cretian settlement been found. There is no
Cretian evidence on the mainland except for trade goods. Minos's
Thalassocracy was limited to islands.

Thanks Dennis for some interesting points.

Sabine have you anything to add here?

John