Re: [tied] Laryngeal theory as an unnatural

On Sat, 25 Jan 2003, aquila_grande <aquila_grande@...> wrote:

> WELL,
>
> My theory can easily be applied in those cases where endings are
> applied directly after wovels:
>
> I gave one example. Another example is the conjugation of thematic
> verbs: ebhero-m, ebhere-s ebhere-t, etc. Here the m-ending could
> explain the ablaut. So- what is stupid with my theory in those cases?

That is not stupid, but just about common opinion. It is not absolutely
right, however, since the decisive factor appears to be +/- voice. But
under anybody's theory, -m makes -om with the thematic vowel. Saussure
wrote that.

>
> In those cases where the wovel is in the root between consonants, an
> ending could still cause the ablaut alternation. For example an -m
> could cause the preceeding consonant to become labialized, and this
> could in its turn give a wovel before this a o-tuning.

It could, but doesn't. It would have been noticed long ago if it did. This
is not even ad hoc, but ad aliud.

>
> OR: The tuning could be the combination of the effect of both the
> root consonants and varying affixes that influence the root wovel
> retrogradely or antegradely through an consonant in between.

No such "tuning" in dependency of adjacent phonetic material is observed.
There is no point in explaining it if it is not what we find.

>
> What I mean is basically the following: The influence of laryngeals
> upon wovels, are exactly the same phenomenon as the influence from
> other consonants upon wovels, and probably had an effect at the same
> time. There were o-tuning consonants, a-tuning consonants, and e-
> tuning consonants. Only some of these were laryngeals.

Evidence, please?

> What I further think is as follows: This influence is the cause of
> the qualitative ablaut, and the lengthened grade of the quantitative
> ablaut.
>

In Eichner's famous mehur story from 1973 (IE *me:H2-wr > Hitt. mehur
'time'), the sequence *me:H2- has lengthened grade without coloration.
Many additional examples have been found since, showing that long /e:/ was
immune to coloration by adjacent laryngeals H2 and H3. That must mean that
lengthened grade is independent of the laryngeal effect which belongs to a
later period.

I do not think IE ablaut holds very many secrets anymore, nor does
laryngeal theory. You are not right in insinuating that ablaut and
laryngeal effects are not seen in conjunction, quite on the contrary that
is what the field has been doing all along.

Jens

>
>
>
> -- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Jens Elmegaard Rasmussen <jer@...>
> wrote:
> > Yes, Al, that was a poor joke. It's hard to keep a stright face when
> > confronted with a theory explaining ablaut, including ablauting root
> > vowels, by influence from adjacent consonants, for in ablauting
> roots the
> > consonants are the same in all alternants. What DO you mean?
> Believe me,
> > these matters have been considered in combination with each other
> many,
> > many times.
> >
> > Jens
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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