Re: More numbers

--- In cybalist@..., "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@..., Miguel Carrasquer Vidal <mcv@...> wrote:
> > On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:31:47 -0000, tgpedersen@... wrote:
> >
> > [stuff about Austronesian, or was it Austric?]
> >
> > While I don't believe a word of this whole Oppenheimer-Manansala
> > stuff, it's still interesting to note that in 1840, Franz Bopp,

one

> of
> > the fathers of Indo-European studies (although pre-

Junggrammatiker)

> > published an article where he advocated a (genetic) relationship
> > between Indo-European and Malayo-Polynesian. I have never read
> that,
> > so I cannot say exactly what his idea was based on, but one can

make

> > an educated guess that the numerals had something to do with it.
> > Austronesian forms such as <duwa> "2" (PAN *dewsa) and <teru> "3"
> (PAN
> > *telu) certainly strike the imagination, and Bopp thought he was

on

> to
> > something, just like he (justly) thought to be on to something

when

> he
> > noted (as one of the first) the similarities between the Sanskrit
> and
> > Greek, Latin, Persian and Germanic conjugation systems.
> >
> > Nowadays, of course, these similarities are thought to be mere
> > coincidences, but about a year ago I found something strange. I

was

> > reading up on Ancient Egyptian in Schenkel's "Einführung", and

came

> to
> > the chapter on the numerals. The Egyptian for "four" was <jfdw>
> > (*/?Vft.aw/ < *<?-p.-t.->). Schenkel compares this with forms

like

> > Somali <afar> "4", and Beja <fad.ig> "4". I might add Chadic
> (Hausa)
> > <f(w)ud.u> "4". The interesting thing is that Schenkel next
> compares
> > Semitic <?arba3-> "4", from *<?arp.aG->, and by metathesis and
> > (irregular) *t. > r, ultimately from a PAA prototype like
> > *<?Vp.t.-VGu> (> AEg. <?afd.aw>, Somali <afar>) or *<p.Vt.-VGu> (>
> > Beja <fad.ig>, Hausa <fud.u>).
> >
> > At the time, I was thinking about the possibility that cases of
> > Germanic *f/*b, besides general PIE *kw, might reflect a PIE

phoneme

> > *pw, so a hypothetical *<pwetwor-> "four" (**putVwa:r-) fit right

in

> > with this PAA form *<p.Vt.VGu>. And so did PAA *c^VlVc^- (PSem
> > *t_ala:t_-) "three", if from **tila[:]ti-, in view of PIE *trey-,
> > where the *-y might reflect palatalized *t^ (cf. the ordinal

*<tr.t-

> >)
> > and the unacceptable cluster **tl- may have developed regularly to
> > *tr- (so *t[^]ret^- from pre-Nullstufe **tilati-).
> >
> > To this, we can add Basque <hirur> "3", which can be derived from
> > **<tilut->, and <laur> "4", possibly from **<lapt->.
> >
> > The amazing thing is the link with Proto Austronesian. We have
> > *<telu> "3", and *<xepate> "4". The *x is a reconstructed sound
> that
> > mostly goes to zero, /h/ or glottal stop, but appears

as /s/, /s^/

> or
> > /l/ in the Taiwanese languages. Maybe it was a fricative lateral,
> > which is interesting, considering Basque <laur> "4" < *<lapt->.
> >
> > Now relations between PIE and PAA, whether genetic or involving

the

> > mere borrowing of numerals, are not surprising (think of *septm).
> > Basque is not terribly surprising either ("6" and "7" in Basque

are

> > <sei> (*<s^ei>) and <zazpi> (< *sasbi)). But what the hell are
> > PAA/PIE numerals doing in Taiwan? I have no explanation. I'll
> accept
> > "coincidence".
> >
> >
> > =======================
> > Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
> > mcv@...
>
> I don't think we have to include the Taiwanese forms by going all

the

> way back to Proto-Austronesian.
> Notice in
>
> http://www.zompist.com/anes.htm
>
> that in the language Tidong or Serudong of NE Borneo instead
> of "nine"
> being derived from the standard *siwa? as in the other Austronesian
> languages we have
>
> nanus "9"
>
> and instead of five being derived from the almost universal *lima?
> we have
>
> kegai "6"
>
> Similarly in the Solomon Islands in Melanesia, which Manansala
> believes were colonized by people who left Indonesia 3000 BCE we
> find for "five" in five languages
>
> Qae (Visale) cege
> Di ( Vaturanga) jehe
> Ghari cheghe
> Talise cheghe
> Malango chehe
>
> and further
>
> Santa Isabel:
>
> Kia gaha-ghu
> Laghu gaoha
> Kokota ghagh-au
> Zazao gaha
>

and

Krama gangsal

Sera pinggari?


Silisili biangke haits
(and other similar compounds in the following languages with such
consistency, that one suspects it's a "hand" word)

> This is obviously another root than *lima? Is it *kWe(n)kWe?
>
> "Six" and "seven" are borrowed (presumably) from AfroAsiatic to
> IndoEuropean and also to Etruscan (sa, semph), Basque
> (sei, zazpi) and Kartvelian (ekvsi, shvidi ). They seem alway to
> follow each other. Because of some IE reflexes of "six" that
> don't seem to have the initial s- (Old Prussian, some Iranian
> languages), that part of the root is sometimes left optional; this
> also makes it easier to reconcile the root with Kartvelian (Georgian
> /ekwsi/.
> Which gave me this idea: Suppose s- is some kind of "number prefix"
> *se- in whichever was the original language of six and seven?

(Basque

> would have it double, *se-pi- > *spi-, prefix now unrecognizable,

so

> it's added again: *se-spi-.) And seven, without the prefix would be
> *pitu-, which, voila!, is "seven" in nearly all Austronesian

languages

> (Proto-Austronesian *pitu?).
>
> http://www.zompist.com/anes.htm
>
> This might also take care of Northwest Caucasian (eg. Kabard-

Cherkes

> (x^e, bLe; both prefix-less!), Proto-Nakh (Proto-Nakh+ *jalx, *worl,
> also both prefix-less).
>
> Notice in
>
> http://www.zompist.com/mide.htm
>
> under Eastern Cushitic, for "four" and "five":
>
> Proto-HEC+ *shoole *omute
> Burji foola umutta
> Gedeo shoole onde
> Hadiyya sooro onto
> Kambata shoolo onto
> Sidamo shoole onte
> Yaaku çwen xoopi
> Birale talaxa hobbe
> Tsamay sálah= xóobin
> Afar firéy-i konóy-u
> Saho afaar koon
> Dasenech ?affur cen
> Elmolo+ láfur kên
> Arbore ?afúr chénn
> Bayso afar ken
> Rendille 'áfar cán
> Somali áfar-ti shan-ti
> Tunni áfar shán
> Aweer áfar shâng
> Oromo (Galla) afur shan
> Borana afur shian
> Konso afur ken
>
> Note that it falls into two groups; the last one (from Afar on) has
> for "four" cognates of the ones Miguel mentioned (/?afúr/ etc), and
> for "five" something that might have been *kWen-? A cognate of
> Semitic *h-m-s-?
> Notice also Guanche (Tenerife) cansa "five".
>

Starting with prefix-less 6 and 7, namely

-ekW-, -p-t-

or, if we start fronm the AfroAsiatic (but not universally so!) forms

-t- , -p-t-

let's follow a suggestion Miguel made some time back and look for
them south of the Sahara. Perhaps, if s- is really a prefix, we can
find those numerals there, possibly with other prefixes.

http://www.zompist.com/niger.htm

Niger - Congo

6 7
Southwestern Mande

Loko ngohita ngofela
Loma doseta dofera
Mende wéita wófela
Bandi woita ngofera


Eastern Mande

Bisa soddi saapra
Busa sûdó sûfla
Samo Toma soro soba


Northern Mande

Senegal
5 6 7
Fulani (Fula) jow- joweego'o joweed`id`-
Maasina joyi jeegon jed`d`i

Interesting that the prefix means "five". Perhaps s- once did too.

In the same languages, the numbers
2 3,
Fulani (Fula) d`id`- tat-
Maasina d`id`i tati

look like the reduplicated form of the corresponding Austronesian
numerals. The Fulani, I've read somewhere in popular anthropology
stuff, think of themselves as a people apart from their neighbors,
cf. also the link I provided earlier of SE Asian back migration to
Africa, approx the same area.

"six" and "seven" are the numerals a people who can count up to a
full hand need to take in astronomy.

And, BTW a heartfelt thanks to the irrepressible Mark Rosenfelder for
having compiled this list of numerals and putting it on the internet.

> Torsten