[tied] Re: Neptune, Poseidon, Danu, etc.

Lion and/or leopards were the totemic animal(s) of the 'Great
Goddess' of the Near East going WAAAYYYY back at least to the
Neolithic, as is found in archaeology. I believe she spread
throughout a huge region with the early Neolithic cultures and
colonizing populations which, IMO, may have stretched from the Indus
Valley into Europe. I believe the Harappans, Elamites, Sumerians,
Urartians, Minoans, Hattians, and others were vestiges of these
peoples and culture that lasted into historic times. Their 'Great
Goddess' and her lions as well as her dying-and-resurrecting
son/consort are a remnant of their religions, adopted by Semites and
IE peoples alike.

--- In cybalist@..., "João S. Lopes Filho" <jodan99@...> wrote:
> There was a great range of a Warrior/Hunting Goddess, linked to
wild cats in
> Europe, North Africa and Asia:
> Greece - Athena and Artemis - lions
> Egypt - Sekhmet - lions
> Scandinavia - Freya - cats
> Asia Minor - Cybele - lions; Asiatic Aphrodite - panthers
> Semites - Ashtart - lions
> Sumeria - Inana - lions
> India - Durga - lions
>
> This list can be added.
>
> Joao Sl
> Rio
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <cas111jd@...>
> To: <cybalist@...>
> Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 2:27 AM
> Subject: [tied] Re: Neptune, Poseidon, Danu, etc.
>
>
> > Good points all, Mr. Caws.
> >
> > I find it intriguing that so many deities and heroes became
> > identified with their arch-enemy, the 'world serpent' in its
various
> > forms, to an extent that they were even depicted as it, with
> > characters such as Cadmus turning into one as well as slaying
one. I
> > don't know how to explain it. It must be some trophy thing.
> >
> > The 'world serpent' is, IMO, a central if not THE central aspect
of
> > early religion. The similarities from India to Britain are
striking.
> >
> > As per Athena, a few interesting comments: I want to see her as
> > related to Valkyries and maybe some Celtic war goddesses, but
this is
> > a bit convoluted. Some see her as androgynous, and for good
reason,
> > IMO. We should note in respect to her supporting role of the
dragon
> > slayer that the Hittites had, in one version, an Astarte-like
goddess
> > supporting the thunder god and a hero to slay Illuyankas. Astarte/
> > Ishtar, etc., of course was identified by the Greeks with
Aphrodite,
> > but as a war goddess she still overlapped in functions with
Athena.
> >
> > I think the Anatolian 'Great Mother' goddess known to the Greco-
> > Romans as Cybele also had this androgynous character as well as
> > mulitple functions. Some coins and objects from Cyprus even
depicted
> > Aphrodite with a beard. Then there was Agdistis of Phrygia, who
was
> > some sort of androgynous/ bisexual/ hermaphrodite thing that drove
> > Attis crazy and castrate himself (Phrygian version).
> >
> > So this is where it gets peculiar: Athena is associated with a
> > certain Atthis, who was the mother of Erichthonius in one myth
(IAW
> > Apollodorus). This name recalls the name of Attis as well as
> > Atargatis, who in Syria was 'the Divine Ata'.
> >
> > As Attis mean 'lord', might not Atthis mean 'lady'? Even in the
> > Mycenaean Age she was called Atana Potnia ('Athena the Great
Lady').
> > There was also Atargatis in Syria, a late version of
Ishtar/Astarte,
> > who was 'the Divine Ata'.
> >
> > This lord and lady relationship is paralleled in Norse mythology
by
> > Frey and Freya ('lord' and 'lady'), who were not Aesir, but
adopted
> > into Asgard from the Vanir deities.
> >
> > Freya's similarities with the southern goddesses are also weird to
> > explain. First was her human lover Otter (Attis?) whom she turned
> > into a boar (the same animal that killed Attis AND Adonis (same
dying-
> > and-resurrection savior-god and myth). More weird, she had a
chariot
> > pulled by cats. CATS!? Where'd she get that? Cybele had a chariot
> > pulled by lions - that's where!
> >
> > How, when and why these aspects of the Near Eastern 'great
goddess'
> > made it to Scandinavia and managed to survive as the Vanir goddess
> > Freya I don't know. My speculation is that she was taken up into
the
> > Balkans with the Neolithic farmers before the place was overrun by
> > the IE kurgan and Battle-Axe peoples. These Neolithic farmers must
> > have pervaded the Danubian/Linear Ware culture of the upper Danube
> > and adjacent areas. Their gods and goddesses the proto-
Scandinavians
> > recognized as the Vanir, and they kept a few that they liked.
> >
> > No lions in northern Europe - just cats I guess (should by lynx,
> > though)
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In cybalist@..., MrCaws@... wrote:
> > > --- In cybalist@..., cas111jd@... wrote:
> > > > The Greek gods and goddesses had enough attributes, myths,
and so
> > > on
> > > > to relate them to just about anyone you want.
> > > > It seems to me, though, that Eurynome has the closest
connection
> > to
> > > > the Near Eastern 'cosmic ocean' goddess and her serpentine
> > consort.
> > > > According to one source, Hera was the parthenogenic mother of
> > > Typhon,
> > > > which would also associate her with this Near Eastern role. As
> > has
> > > > been already noted, Athena was connected with the serpent-god,
> > but
> > > > this also works as its slayer - first supporting Zeus against
> > > Typhon
> > > > and then Perseus against the snake-haired Medusa.
> > >
> > > I think you are right about Eurynome. However, I think the
Serpent
> > > consort of Eurynome may differ from Poseidon or Yam or Enki in
that
> > > he was disposed of early on, as per Ouranos via Kronos or Mummu
via
> > > Enki, while the latter deities were all active in their
respective
> > > pantheons. I'll get to the Athena stuff in a bit.
> > >
> > >
> > > > PS: Cadmus and Apollo were both serpent slayers - probably
> > versions
> > > > of the same god and myth, IMO. Strangely, Apollo's image was
as a
> > > > dragon in his temple on Delos. This serpent/dragon slayer
having
> > > this
> > > > beast as his totemic animal is also found quite commonly in
the
> > IE
> > > > religions, with clans adorning their coats of arms with it,
> > > claiming
> > > > descent from a dragon slayer. The Welsh have one on their
> > national
> > > > flag. The Vikings carved them on their ships, Anglo-Saxons
> > painted
> > > > them on their shields.
> > > > The aegis of Zeus and Athena had Medusa's head, which was
> > probably
> > > > derived from Medusa as a dragon/serpent. The aegis was
emblematic
> > > of
> > > > storms, with Athena and Zeus both storm deities.
> > >
> > > Both Apollo and Athena wore the emblems of defeated monsters,
> > Python
> > > and Medusa respectiveley. Both of these incidents involve
> > a "cultural
> > > hero" type figure-Apollo's directly, and Athena via Perseus.
> > > I think that the archetypal "cultural hero" role usually
involves
> > a
> > > triumph over a dragon or related monster. . Apollo plays the
good
> > > Freudian hero, killing the evil serpent that attacked his
mother in
> > > some versions of the story. This version seems to go back to an
old
> > > Canaanite myth where Yam, in serpent form, attacked Laton(Leto).
> > > The story of Perseus and the Medusa also fits this archetypal
hero
> > > tale exceedingly well, with a few twists. Now, the wicked
monster
> > > figure is separated from the evil father. And it is Athena who
ends
> > > up in possession of Medusa's head. I would argue that Athena is
> > > definetly a sort of cultural hero, but that gender constructions
> > > among other things mandated her role as an indirect agent in the
> > > story.
> > > I think that both of these stories involve a theme of
succession
> > as
> > > well. The Freudian hero tale is a story of the young
establishing
> > > dominance over their parent-figures.
> > > Perhaps Athena's role in defeating Medusa represents a
conquest of
> > a
> > > goddess that is now playing the role of a monster. Some
> > mythologists
> > > think that most demons are old gods that have been demonized by
> > > proponents of newer faiths or by a populace that now views the
> > > divinity as irrelevent or frightening. Thus, the emblem of the
> > Medusa
> > > would be also a symbol demonstrating Athena's dominance over an
old
> > > goddess(Or older version of herself) that still haunted the
mythic
> > > consciousness of the area.
> > > Likewise, Apollo's image as a dragon could represent his
> > succession
> > > over the old dragon prophet, Python. As Pythian Apollo, he plays
> > the
> > > role of the dragon he killed.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > --- In cybalist@..., "João S. Lopes Filho" <jodan99@...>
wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: <MrCaws@...>
> > > > > To: <cybalist@...>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 4:50 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [tied] Neptune, Poseidon, Danu, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > 1: I agree, but is this necessarily just PIE? Sumerian
Lord of
> > > > > > Underground waters Enki is pretty old,
> > > > > > 2: So a grafting on of an IE deity to a non-IE or at least
> > > > different
> > > > > > IE Lord of Waters perhaps?
> > > > >
> > > > > Like all main great Greek gods, Poseidon is a very complex
> > deity.
> > > > It's hard
> > > > > to distinguish IE and non-IE traits. There's a large amount
of
> > > > > superpositions.
> > > > >
> > > > > > 4:Enki was sometimes depicted as a serpent, other times
as a
> > > > fish. He
> > > > > > seemed to be at the head of the Sumerian pantheon at one
point
> > > (In
> > > > my
> > > > > > opinion, anyway). Heads of the pantheon are often
consorts of
> > > the
> > > > > > goddess and often have serpent attributes.
> > > > > > I am interested in the Hephaistos comparison-What traits
do
> > you
> > > > see
> > > > > > in common?
> > > > >
> > > > > I think Hephaistos had a role as a sort of consort of Athena
> > (at
> > > > least in
> > > > > Athens). His role of a consort of the Great Goddess, but he
> > > bother
> > > > her and
> > > > > she cast him below. This myth has many counterparts across
> > Greece
> > > > and
> > > > > Western Asia. I think
> > > > > it's the main source of legends of quarrels between a god
and
> > > > goddess (the
> > > > > god is allways defeated) : Poseidon x Hera in Argos;
Poseidon x
> > > > Athena in
> > > > > Athens. I'd also include some interesting couples:
> > > > > Ares (father of the Kadmus serpent) and Aphrodite in Thebas.
> > > > > Kekrops/Erikhthonios and Athenas in Athens (Hephaistos is
> > > > considered the
> > > > > father of snake-bodied Erikhthonios)
> > > > > Python and Leto in Delphi and Delos.
> > > > > Eden's Snake and Eva.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > 5. The consort of the goddess is often a Lord of the
> > Wilderness
> > > > > > figure such as this. I definetly think there are reasons
to
> > > > connect
> > > > > > Poseidon to this archetype/role as well. I wonder if this
> > > > reflects an
> > > > > > earlier role he played in old Mediterranean/Near Eastern
myth?
> > > > > > 6.Hmmm. I will have to get back to you on that one too.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, the Lord of Wilderness was the Goddess's consort in Old
> > > > European myths.
> > > > > I'd like to add to the trais of Poseidon his relation to
> > Ugaritic
> > > > Yam, the
> > > > > Serpentlike God of Sea. His consort was the beautiful
Athtart
> > (I
> > > > think she's
> > > > > the source of Greek Amphitrite)
> > > > >
> > > > > > Mr. Caws
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >