And you can continue to be an asshole on both counts.

Verizon yahoo has two modes for messages from yahoo groups: either the entire block of message enters the reply as a single graphic, so responses cannot be inserted; or it is set for Plain Text, and the Quote of the previous message does not receive any sort of marginal mark.

If you're incapable of interpreting a graphic distinction as nothing more than a graphic distinction, then you're hopeless.
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...



----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Everson <everson@...>
To: qalam@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 2:37:20 PM
Subject: Re: FW: [M_L] Re: Languages with writing systems?

At 06:46 -0700 2006-10-11, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

>(caps for distinctness, not for shouting)

It was taken as shouting. If you want what you say to be read, please
follow ordinary etiquette and provide it in ordinary text. I'm not
going to re-type your responses here in discussion, which I would be
obliged to do to continue the discussion.

You are welcome to resubmit your comments. Otherwise, well, you can
just stay wrong about Blissymbolics.

>--
>Peter T. Daniels grammatim@... net
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Michael Everson <everson@... com>
>To: qalam@... com
>Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:06:42 AM
>Subject: Re: FW: [M_L] Re: Languages with writing systems?
>
>At 05:27 -0700 2006-10-11, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>We have been through this before.
>>
>>Under what definition of "writing" is Blissymbolics a writing system?
>
>It is, um... written. With a pen. With chalk. With a computer.
>
>UNDER WHAT DEFINITION OF "WRITING" IS BLISSYMBOLICS A WRITING SYSTEM?
>
>>It may be a language that operates exclusively in a visual medium,
>>but it isn't a writing system.
>
>In my view, Bliss is a truly ideographic script.
>
>THEN IT IS IPSO FACTO NOT A WRITING SYSTEM -- A PURELY (I DON'T KNOW
>WHAT YOU MEAN BY "TRULY") IDEOGRAPHIC WRITING SYSTEM IS IMPOSSIBLE.
>
>>What language does it encode if it's a writing system?
>
>It's eponymous: The language is Blissymbols and its writing system
>has the same name.
>
>THAT'S JUST DUMB. IT WOULD BLEACH THE TERM "WRITING" OF ANY MEANING AT ALL.
>
>Of course cases like these are edge-cases. For years people did not
>believe that Signed languges were true languages, but we now know
>that they are. They have "phonemes" (a word we prefer to "kinemes" or
>whatever). They can be written, certainly, as SignWriting shows us.
>Bliss doesn't have "phonemes" because its users may suffer from a
>variety of maladies many of which prevent spoken language entirely.
>Its speakers *do* speak using language. It's just that their language
>is only written.
>
>IF YOU OUTLAW "PHONEMES" FOR BLISSYMBOLICS BECAUSE THEY DON'T
>INVOLVE SOUND, THEN YOU CAN'T USE "PHONEMES" FOR SIGNED LANGUAGES,
>AND YOU MIGHT AS WELL STICK WITH STOKOE'S TERM "CHEREMES." (I DON'T
>KNOW WHY HE CHOSE THAT PARTICULAR GREEK ROOT FOR HIS TERM.)
>
>IF BLISSYMBOLICS DOES NOT EXHIBIT DUALITY OF PATTERNING, THEN IT IS
>IPSO FACTO NOT A HUMAN LANGUAGE. IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME SINCE I'VE
>SEEN MY COPY OF THE BOOK, AND I DON'T RECALL THE SPECIFICS. I THINK
>IT DOES, THOUGH.
>
>I would not distinguish between "a language that operates exclusively
>in a visual medium" and "a written language" because, well, it's
>writing. I can write a sentence in Bliss with a pen on paper and
>follow it with an English translation, also written on paper.
>
>"A WRITTEN LANGUAGE" IS THE VISIBLY RECORDED VERSION OF A LANGUAGE.
>IF BLISSYMBOLICS IS A LANGUAGE, IT DOESN'T NEED A VISIBLY RECORDED
>VERSION OF ITSELF, BECAUSE IT IS ALREADY A VISIBLE RECORD ITSELF.
>
>YOU CAN ALSO RECORD AN ASL UTTERANCE IN STOKOE'S NOTATION (which
>I've just learned at sci.lang developed into something called
>"SignFont") AND FOLLOW IT WITH A SPOKEN ENGLISH TRANSLATION. IS ASL
>THEREBY A WRITTEN OR A SPOKEN LANGUAGE?
>--
>Michael Everson * http://www.evertype .com
>
>
>groups.yahoo. com/group/ qalam - world's writing systems.
>To unsubscribe: qalam-unsubscribe@ groups.yahoo. com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

--
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype .com



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