suzmccarth wrote:

>
> functions. Therefore older people can have access to computer
> literacy and participate along with younger ones. My
> mother-in-law at 80 is an active participant in her internet forum.

Fair enough but I was actually thinking about people for whom English is
not a first (or even arguably a second) language, and who may not have
ever received any significant education in their home land before coming
to the US. The Hmong are probably close to a worst case, but there are
plenty of others, in significant numbers, from around the world here in
the Bay Area and California at large.

>
> The problem with having to learn a new and different type of
> orthography is that traditional knowledge will be devalued. Those
> who are traditional literates will not be able to participate, even if
> they had electricity.

Well OK, but isn't the mere fact of using computers a drastic change
from traditional knowledge and processes? Couldn't that leap be big
enough that other changes are accepted too? I guess I am not 100% clear
where or even why, philosophically speaking, a drastic change and move
(forward if you will) must be accompanied by a dragging of the leg
creating friction towards the old way of doing things?

I guess it often takes a generation or so for such technologies to be
fully integrated into a society, so there is a transition time, but can
we acknowledge that and plan accordingly? Seems to me the choices are a)
don't use computers at all to preserve old traditions, b) use them and
recognize society will likely change drastically as a result withing a
generation and plan for that or c) use then and not plan for the changes.

My natural tendency is to vote for b) in that case, although sometimes
c) and less often a). But it seems a fair discussion to have and I am
interested to hear other views.

>
> > OTOH, it is true that many people fall through the cracks. But
> that is a
> > societal problem, not one related to the material being taught.
> >
> > Is it or will it be significantly different in Liberia?
>
> I am not sure we can compare the educational opportunities in
> Liberia with NA.

Right, probably so. So it is a societal problem,related to the ability
of the society to teach, not a problem related to the human capacity to
learn?

> >
> > It is a pretty simple concept though, you have to admit.
> Especially if
> > your past education does not provide you with any other
> expectations
> > that there should be a on->one correspondence between key
> presses and
> > "characters".
>
> People's brains appreciate feedback. Plunk, I see it, therefore I
> now know what that key does.

Yeah, I agree, In a Japanese IME you get that feedback. When you type
alt-# for Western European chars for instance, you don't get that
feedback and it sucks. I would recommend to Michael that any
implementations of a Vai KB provide some sort visual feedback on dead
keys, as appropriate for the language/font at hand.

>
> About research, I have probably written one of the only papers on
> a study about being able to input and search on the computer in
> different writing systems. And it is no fun when some children
> can google like a flash in their writing system and others cannot
> even input one word.

Not sure I understand - no fun for whom?

> In fact, I would never do it again - it was so
> frustrating and unhappy really to say no "you have to use a
> different system", or "I will type the word for you." OTOH it just
> confirmed for them that English was better.

Well, for the time being, it is.

Japanese, at the time of the Meiji era, had a similar problem - they
were completely isolated from the world's economy. They selected people
and sent them out for education, with a kind of a national fervor to
catch up. It is not realistic to expect the same success rate from other
countries today, I know, but is it realistic that an independent gov't
would select champions form its citizenry and have them educated in the
ways of the outside world so that they could lead the way to integration?

I can easily see that one result achievable in fairly short order, would
be that such a representative might take responsibility for the
completion for a Vai OS (Linux?) along with Vai localizations of high
value sw such as browsers, fonts, keyboards, etc. That could then easily
be leveraged to additional education that integrates the old with the new.

But it won't take long before everyone with a Vai OS and browser was
reviewing English web sites, downloading American and other foreign
songs and movies, etc. ! that is what I mean by suggesting it may not be
practical to suggest that even with a full Vai OS, society there will
not undergo a drastic and rapid change.

>
>
> What you are describing here is how most children learn to use
> the computer and it is a lot faster than reading the menu. It is
> called clicking around. Children aren't afraid to just click and see
> what happens. The notion that you have to read the directions is
> not really part of the game for children.

Or for adults :) I have trained many sysops to install operating systems
in languages they can't read - because they are so familiar with the
process in English, they don't even realize they are not reading
anymore, just reacting. So when the visual aspect and order of steps
stays the same, but the text become gibberish to them, they manage just
fine.

It is funny though - on my first trip to Japan, with absolutely no
knowledge of the language or writing system, within a week I was rapidly
acquiring the meaning of characters based on context of their
presentation, and then from a simple primer. Didn't know pronounciation
or how to write, but I could tell if a shop was a butcher or a flower
shop, which train station to get off at (even if the sign/map had no
romaji), and so on. And I have since met many people who lived there for
years who say they can't even do that. It does make me wonder about how
some people learn to interpret the visual signals society provides all
around differently from others. Pretty fascinating actually.

Best,

Barry