--- In qalam@yahoogroups.com, "suzmccarth" <suzmccarth@...> wrote:

>
> --- In qalam@yahoogroups.com, Gianni Vacca <xiongyaliren@...>

wrote:

> > Hi Suzanne
> >
> > > How old would these charts be?
> >
> > I'm not sure, but I think the very first one was
> > created by a group of drunken scholars under the
> > (Northern? Southern?) Song dynasty.

Thanks. I was able to find them.

http://people.cohums.ohio-state.edu/chan9/c681/Table1.htm

"The language of the Song dynasty rhyme tables, such as the Qieyun
Zhizhangtu (wrongly attributed to Sima Guang, 1067 AD, now
considered a work composed between 1176 and 1203, hence later than
the Yunjing).**"

However, the rhyme tables date back even earlier.

"The language of around 600 AD codified in the Qieyun rhyme
dictionary, treated as reflecting the Chang'an dialect of (what is
today) Shaanxi province, under the Sui dynasty (581 - 618 AD).
The standard language of the Northern and Southern Dynasties
codified in the Qieyun (601 AD), treated as reflecting the speech of
the Nanjing court in the 6th c. (i.e., based on 3rd c. Luoyang
speech brought to the Nanjing court).

Here is an image. It is interesting to see the organisation from
front of the mouth to back for the initial sounds.

http://www.sungwh.freeserve.co.uk/chinese/rhymetable.htm

Even better, there is a paper by Shu-Fen Chen, called

"Vowel Length in Middle Chinese based on Buddhist Sanskrit
Transliterations"

It appears to discuss the problem of whether these rhyme tables show
a difference in short and long vowels or just a difference in vowel
quality that was later interpreted as short and long.

http://www.ling.sinica.edu.tw/publish/LL4.1-02-Chen.pdf

Thanks, Gianni

Suzanne