On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:40:10 +0200, Piotr Gasiorowski
<gpiotr@...> wrote:

>On 04-10-27 00:07, Richard Wordingham wrote:
>> Is the description as a 'laminal alveolar trill' adequate?
>I wonder. I can pronounce it without any problems and I can feel, kmore
>or less, what my tongue is doing in the process, but the articulation is
>so complex that it seems to defy description in customary terms like
>"apical" and "laminal". I'm aware of considerable muscular tension in
>the tongue tip, which vibrates against the back part of the alveolar
>ridge (so the trill itself can be described as apical), while at the
>same time the laminal segment of the tongue seems to be somewhat bunched
>and pushed towards the prepalatal region, producing a shibilant-type
>fricative accompaniment. I have also observed that I instinctively put
>my teeth together and protrude the lips to enhance the fricative effect.
>I'm not sure if native speakers of Czech do the same, but it just feels
>the natural thing to do.
>A "fricated trill", then?
>> I saw
>> some discussion on SAMPA for Czech which suggested that there wasn't
>> an adequate symbol, with the result that [P\] was selected, along
>> with [Q\] as the voiceless allophone. On the other hand, I can't
>> see any discussion rejecting [r_m], where _m is the X-SAMPA
>> equivalent of the subscript rectangle. The home page for the
>> discussion is http://moon.feld.cvut.cz/sampa/ . Raising (X-SAMPA
>> [r_r] ) was dismissed as too inaccurate, though the Unicode(!)
>> description of the discontinued IPA symbol U+027C (long leg 'r' -
>> see http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0250.pdf ) says that that is
>> the preferred representation!
>> Help!
>If lateral fricatives have their own IPA symbols, the fricated trills
>would seem to deserve the same. I liked the unaccountably abandoned
>longleg "r", and if anybody could think of a nice IPA symbol for its
>voiceless counterpart, I'd be quite happy with that.

Longleg r with voiceless diacritic ("combining ring below").

>As an alternative
>solution, there ought to be a convenient diacritic for secondary
>frication, one that could easily be combined with symbols for laterals
>and rhotics. Its absence is one more mysterious feature of IPA.

The "raised" symbol ("combining up tack below") is used to
make fricatives of approximants. Of course Czech <r^> is a
fricated *trill*, not an approximant. And combining the
ring below with the uptack below is also not pretty. In
print, I would ignore IPA, and use "longleg-r" anyway. In
e-mail, I would just use /r^/ (with voiced & voiceless
allophones) and avoid a phonetic transcription.

Miguel Carrasquer Vidal