On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:24:44 +0000, Richard Wordingham
<richard.wordingham@...> wrote:

>--- In phoNet@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@w...> wrote:
>> Must be an old IPA chart. I remember them. The newer ones (as of
>1989 at
>> least) have it as a (dental)/alveolar/postalveolar approximant.
>
>The chart I've got is 'revised to 1993, updated 1996', whatever that
>means.

Sorry, I thought you meant one of those old IPA charts that had reversed r
next to T, D, s, z in the fricative row.

>It's also in the files here. I was referring to the
>diacritic section, bottom right hand corner, which is also available
>separately as <http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/diacritics.html>.

Allright, see what you mean. No that's correct: the "raised" modifier
makes a fricative out of an approximant, and the "lowered" modifier makes
an approximant out of a fricative. If you think about it, it makes sense:
you raise the articulator to make more friction, and you lower it to
decrease the friction.

>The
>1979 version makes r\ (upside down 'r') postalveolar. If it's now
>meant to serve for all three varieties, that's very bad, for
>intervocally I think my /D/ and /r/ are both frictionless
>continuants, [D_o] versus [r\]. I may not be typical - I did not
>distinguish intervocal /v/ and /D/ until I was in my teens.
>
>Also, what are [S] and [Z] doing as post-alveloar fricatives? They
>used to be palato-alveolar fricatives. Has the meaning or the
>classification been changed?

The terms "palato-alveolar" and "alveolo-palatal" are not very informative.

I'll paste from a post I coincidentally had just written to sci.lang:

<begin quote>
Ladefoged & Maddieson's thorough analysis of the s(h)ibilants reveals that
the following parameters can play a role:

articulator:
1 blade of the tongue (laminal)
2 tip of the tongue (apical)
3 underside of the tip of the tongue (sub-apical)

place of articulation:
1 the upper teeth (dental)
2 the alevolar ridge (alveolar)
3 behind the alveolar ridge (post-alveolar)
4 the hard palate (palatal)

the shape of the tongue (blade/back):
1 grooved \ dental,
2 flat / alveolar
3 domed \ post-alveolar,
4 palatalized / (palatal)

the position of the tip of the tongue (laminal only)
1 against the lower teeth (closed)
2 leaving a sublingual cavity (open)

<end quote>

Instead of "palato-alveolar" (English <sh>), it's better to use [rounded]
[apical or laminal] domed post-alveolar. Instead of "alveolo-palatal"
(Mandarin <x>, Polish <s'>), [apical or laminal] palatalized post-alveolar.
Instead of "retroflex" (Mandarin <sh>, Polish <sz>) [apical or laminal]
flat post-alveolar.

>For voiced dental, alveolar and post-
>alveolar fricatives, J. D. O'Connor had [D], [z] and [r\], and uses
>a lowering hook to convert them to frictionless continuants.

But [r\] (like [j]*) is defined, at least since IPA included an approximant
row, as a frictionless continuant. You use the raising hook to make it
into a fricative (as in e.g. English dr-). The sound in <tree> is then a
reversed r with raising hook and voicelessness ring.


* the curly-j is therefore equivalent to [j] plus raising thingy.

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...