From: Bryan Levman
Message: 5041
Date: 2018-04-06
Hi Balaji,
I think you're still right about the derivation of vivicca = Skt. vivicya ("having separated from"), with normal change of -cy- > -cc-.
It looks like vic and vyac are related in some way as MW has "cf. vic". MW gives it as a class 6 verb with 3rd. sing. as vicati (vyacati > vicati, which is irreg. as one would expect vacati), but the meanings are quite different (from the root vic) and there doesn’t appear to be any form with the vi- prefix, vi-vyac.The gerund form of vi-vyac (if it existed) would be vivyacya > vivacca,in Pāli, but since other forms also change the -a- > -i- (the past participle for example is vicitvā, not vicatvā), then this one too would change to vivicca, which would make them the same form and perhaps a homonym.
The primary meaning of vic is to separate and the vi prefix seems to be an emphatic in this case, emphasizing “apart”, “asunder” “away from” etc., whereas the primary meaning of vyac is “encompass” “contain” “comprehend”. vic also has the meaning of “discern” “judge” which is related to vyac “comprehend”.And vi-vic has the meaning of “discriminate” “distinguish” “discern” “ponder” which also seems to be related to vyac, “comprehend”.
So in fact they may be related as to meaning and vivicca in the first jhāna may refer to both, “having separated onself from akusalehi dhammehi, etc.,” and “having comprehended”. The flaw in that possibility is of course the ablative, as one would have expected an accusative case, but one could stretch it and call it an instrumental of cause ("having comprehended because of unwholesome phenomena"). In any case this is just speculation. MW also has the meaning "cheat", "trick" "deceive for vyac > vicati and that might also work in the first jhāna with an instrumental of means, but again just speculation
For the Dhātup, MW references xxviii, 12. Since I don’t have a copy of the Dhātupāṭha, does anyone know of one online that I can check?
Mettā,
Bryan
I think you're still right about the derivcation of vivicca = Skt. vivicya ("having separated from"), with normal change of -cy- > -cc-.
It looks like vic and vyac are related in some way as MW has "cf. vic". MW gives it as a class 6 verb with 3rd. sing. as vicati (vyacati > vicati, which is irreg. as one would expect vacati), but the meanings are quite different and there doesn’t appear to be any form with the vi- prefix, vi-vyac.The gerund form of vi-vyac (if it existed) would be vivyacya > vivacca,in Pāli, but since other forms also change the -a- > -i- (the past participle for example is vicitvā, not vicatvā), then this one too would change to vivicca, which would make them the same form and perhaps a homonym.
The primary meaning of vic is to separate and the vi prefix seems to be an emphatic in this case, emphasizing “apart”, “asunder” “away from” etc., whereas the primary meaning of vyac is “encompass” “contain” “comprehend”. vic also has the meaning of “discern” “judge” which is related to vyac “comprehend”.And vi-vic has the meaning of “discriminate” “distinguish” “discern” “ponder” which also seems to be related to vyac, “comprehend”.
So in fact they may be related as to meaning and vivicca in the first jhāna may refer to both, “having separated onself from akusalehi dhammehi, etc.,” and “having comprehended”. The flaw in that possibility is of course the ablative, as one would have expected an accusative case, but one could stretch it and call it an instrumental of cause ("having comprehended because of unwholesome phenomena"). In any case this is just speculation. MW also has the meaning "cheat", "trick" "deceive for
vyac > vicati
and that might also work in jhāna 1 with an instrumental of means, but again just speculation
For the Dhātup, MW references xxviii, 12. Since I don’t have a copy of the Dhātupāṭha, does anyone know of one online that I can check?
Mettā,
Bryan
Dear Balaji,
Thanks for this explanation. I can't seem to find vic/vicati anywhere. Skt vic/vinakit is a class 7 verb with a nasal infix and does not seem to have the meaning of "include" or "understand" (closest to this latter meaning is "discriminate, "judge"). And I can't find anything in Pali for vicati. Vicāra I believe is from vi + carati.
The close connection between vicāra as “holding in mind” and sati makes sense, but are they indeed etymologically connected (not vicāra and sati, but vicāra with the meaning of "including")?
Thanks for your help,
Mettā, Bryan
On Thursday, April 5, 2018, 3:03:44 AM EDT, Balaji balaji.ramasubramanian@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:Hi Jim,Yes, vic is the correct root. In fact, vivicya in Sanskrit is etymologically related to viveka - the former means “having secluded” and the latter means “seclusion”.vi + vic + lyap = vivicyaThe whole first phrase of the jhāna formula has to do with secluding oneself from something.There are many etymological connections. vicati is the verb for the vic dhātu in the parasmaipadī form. It is an ubhayapadī dhātu - at least in Paninian Sanskrit. It has the meaning of including, or containing - in this context. For example:ghaTo udakam vicatiThe pot contains waterIn a recent issue of an Indian Sanskrit monthly magazine that I subscribe to, I remember seeing this usage:so grāmavidyālayo bālāH api vicatiThat village school includes girls tooNow the vi prefix acts as a negation:vi + vicati = preclude, seclude, cause to be withoutNow, as it happens, vicati has another meaning too. It also means to comprehend or understand something. For example:so bahūn granthān vicati (Skt)so bahave ganthe vicati (Pali)He comprehends many scripturesIn this context, translating vicati as “contains” or “includes” would not make much sense. So because of this other meaning of comprehension, now you can see how vic dhātu has to do with both vicāra and vicaya. When we read a little about the kāraka of the vic dhātu, we understand that both the meaning of containing/including, and comprehending are related, because comprehending something has to do with holding it in the mind.And consequently vivicati in this secondary context would mean to forget. A classic usage is found in the Mahābhārata, classical Indian epic, where Karna (nemesis of the hero Arjuna) forgets his mantra and loses in battle:kāle suvīro vivicet mantrarudram raNe rudhe...In time the great hero forgets the divine mantra, during the fierce battle...On a sidenote: this clearly shows that in ancient India, the act of holding something in the mind, the act of memory - or sati - often translated as mindfulness, was crucial for the purpose of comprehension. And when we hold something in mind (vicāra) as the main and central theme (ekaggatā) for long periods of time, secluded from distracting objects, then there is concentration on that object. So it is possible to see why in the Suttas jhāna and sati always go together. To native speakers of Pali, these etymological connections between, vicāra and vicati would have been only too obvious, and they could not have seen satipatthāna and jhāna as separate forms of meditation, but as directly connected aspects of the same meditation.Thanks,BalajiOn Wed, Apr 4, 2018 at 5:42 PM 'James Anderson' jimanderson.on@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:Hi again Kåre,
After looking a little further, I found two grammatical suttas (Sd 1203 and Kc 598) confirming that √vic is the root of vivicca. Interestingly, Mmd on Kc 598 gives vivecane (investigating, distinguishing MW, not in PED) as the meaning of the root which differs from the Sanskrit one in the Dhātupāṭha I quoted in my earlier message. Mmd also provides a step-by-step analysis of the formation of vivicca. This work dates back to the 10th-11th cent.
Jim
--Balaji