Re: Khandhesu....Paramatthajotika

 

Dear Petra,

Thank you. All good points. I definitely would not take gāmopacāro here to mean "the vicinity of a village." The contexts are completely different. You are right that 'gehe' is locative singular. I should not have rendered it as a plural. Your rendering of upacāra as "designation" makes good sense, as does Bryan's suggestion of "usage." These work better than "metaphor," but perhaps something is still missing. One might try "representation for ..." But we all understand what is intended. The only problem is finding an exact English rendering to convey the sense.

With best wishes,

Bhikkhu Bodhi

On 10/21/2016 3:22 AM, Petra Kieffer-Pülz kiepue@... [palistudy] wrote:

 

Dear Bhikkhu Bodhi,

I think that you are essentially right. Let me only add some remarks regarding the simile. 

The term gāmopacāra at first sight is only a variant of  gāmūpacāra. The latter is used in connection with definitions of a village. According to the Word Analysis in the Vinaya even a single hut (kuṭi) may be called a village (gāma), (Vin III 46). This fits well the example of the one to three houses that are spoken of as „village“ when burnt down. gāmūpacāra in contrast to gāma normally describes the surrounding of a village measured by stone throws. This depends on whether a village is enclosed or not. Thus gāmūpacāra normally is the „surrounding of a village“. Since there are different definitions of a village, and since according to an Abhidhamma definition the arañña (wilderness) begins right in front of the entrance of a village, we have also explanations stating that in such connection gāmūpacāra and gāma are identical. In the simile we have once gāmo daḍḍho, and then gehe gāmopacāro siddho. Thus  at first sight this could be understood as if  gāma and gāmopacāra are used here for one and the same entity. But the passage as a whole makes one assume that gāmopacāra here is not used in the same sense as gāmūpacāra, but that upacāra here is used in the sense of „conventional designation“ which is documented in Sanskrit texts (see PW, pw, and MW 1899). This also may be a reason why here gāmopacāra and not the much more frequent and usual gāmūpacāra has been used.

The text then would simply mean: 

For the designation „aggregate" has been established in relation to beings. Why? Because [beings] are to be made known with reference to the aggregates. How so? As the designation „village“ for a house. For on account of the fact that [the word]  village is to be made known (paññāpetabbattā gāmassa) with reference to houses, if even one, two, or three houses  have burnt down, it is said "the village has burnt down'; thus the designation „village" is established for a house (loc. sg.).  …

Best,

Petra

Am 20.10.2016 um 21:53 schrieb Bhikkhu Bodhi venbodhi@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>:

Dear All, 

For the meaning of upacāra here, it is useful to look at the entire passage from the Paramattha-jotikā:

Sattesu hi khandhopacāro siddho. Kasmā? Khandhe upādāya paññāpetabbato. Kathaṃ? Gehe gāmopacāro viya. Seyyathāpi hi gehāni upādāya paññāpetabbattā gāmassa ekasmimpi dvīsu tīsupi vā gehesu daḍḍhesu ‘‘gāmo daḍḍho’’ti evaṃ gehe gāmopacāro siddho, evameva khandhesu paccayaṭṭhena āhāraṭṭhitikesu ‘‘sattā āhāraṭṭhitikā’’ti ayaṃ upacāro siddhoti veditabbo. Paramatthato ca khandhesu jāyamānesu jīyamānesu mīyamānesu ca ‘‘khaṇe khaṇe tvaṃ bhikkhu jāyase ca jīyase ca mīyase cā’’ti vadatā bhagavatā tesu sattesu khandhopacāro siddhoti dassito evāti veditabbo. 

.....  For the aggregates have been established as an upacāra in relation to beings. Why? Because [beings] are to be designated on the basis of the aggregates. How so? In the way a village is an upacāra in relation to houses. For because a village is designated on the basis of the houses, if even one, two, or three houses of the village have burnt down, it is said "the village has burnt down'; thus the village is established as an upacāra in relation to [on the basis of?] the houses. In the same way, when there are the aggregates that stand [in dependence] on nutriment, which has the sense of conditions, this upacāra should be understood to be established: "Beings stand [in dependence] on nutriment." And, since it is the aggregates that are born, grow old, and die in the supreme sense, the upacāra of the aggregates [as representing] those beings should be understood to have been shown as established by the Blessed One when he said, "You, bhikkhu, are moment by moment being born, ageing, and dying."

There seems to be a certain asymmetry between the two statements, however, assuming that the compound X-upacāra functions in the same way in the two instances here: 

(1) Sattesu hi khandhopacāro; and (2) Gehe gāmopacāro.

In the simile (= 2), the houses are "relatively" real, while the village is a mere concept. 

In the application (= 1), the aggregates are real, while the being is a mere concept. 

Yet the text seems to be saying (if the grammar of the two statements is parallel) that the aggregates are an upacāra for beings, but the village an upacāra for the houses.

Am I misinterpreting the passage? 

Bhikkhu Bodhi

On 10/20/2016 10:06 AM, Bryan Levman bryan.levman@... [palistudy] wrote:

 

Dear Robert,

I am translating upacāro as "metaphor" which is the meaning it seems to have in this context. For reference see MW sv upacāra and Bhikkhu Ñāṇamoli's Pali-English  Glossary of Buddhist Technical Terms (ed. by Bhikkhu Bodhi), page 129,

Best wishes,

Bryan

---

From: "robert kirk rjkjp1@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: "palistudy@...com" <palistudy@...com>; "palistudy@...com" <palistudy@...com> 
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2016 2:03 AM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] Khandhesu....Paramatthajotika

 

hi

where does it say "metaphor"

robert

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

 

Hi Rahula,

Your translation is good. The Burmese punctuates  khaṇe kaṇe as modifying the second part of the sentence, but it changes the meaning very little. The whole sentence reads:

paramatthato ca "khandhesu jāyamānesu jīyamānesu mīyamānesu ca khaṇe khaṇe tvaṃ bhikkhu jāyase ca jīyase ca mīyase cā”ti vadatā bhagavatā tesu sattesu khandhopacāro siddhoti dassito evāti veditabbo.Pj 1, 78.

From an ultimate point of view, it should be known that the Bhagavan has demonstrated that, "The metaphor of the aggregates has been established in regard to these beings" when he said, "While the aggregates are born, decay and die, monks, you are born, decay and die."

I haven't found the quote anywhere.If anyone has seen it please let us know the source,

Best wishes,

Bryan

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From: "Rahula rahula_80@...com [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 7:58 AM
Subject: [palistudy] Khandhesu....Paramatthajotika

 

Hi,

How would you translate this text:

Khandhesu jāyamānesu jīyamānesu mīyamānesu ca khaṇe khaṇe tvaṃ bhikkhu jāyase ca jīyase ca mīyase cā

Draft translation:

As the aggregates arises, decay and passes away moment to moment, you, bhikkhu, are born, aged and die.

Thanks,
Rahula

--
                          Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
                          Chuang Yen Monastery
                          2020 Route 301
                          Carmel NY 10512
                          U.S.A.
                          Sabbe sattā averā hontu, abyāpajjā hontu,
                          anighā hontu, sukhī hontu!
                          願眾生無怨，願眾生無害，願眾生無惱，願眾生快樂！
                          May all beings be free from enmity, free from
                          affliction, free from distress. May they be
                          happy!

-- 
Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
Chuang Yen Monastery
2020 Route 301
Carmel NY 10512
U.S.A.

Sabbe sattā averā hontu, abyāpajjā hontu, anighā hontu, sukhī hontu!
願眾生無怨，願眾生無害，願眾生無惱，願眾生快樂！
May all beings be free from enmity, free from affliction, free from distress. May they be happy!