Re: Khandhesu....Paramatthajotika

From: Bryan Levman
Message: 4829
Date: 2016-10-21

One other thought -

If one takes upacāra in its technical meaning of figure of speech or metaphor, it would also work, but I would translate upacāra as "transference" (which is what a metaphor is, from Greek metapherein, to transfer) to make it absolutely clear: "the transference of aggregates to beings (or village to houses)... has been established". Metaphor also of course works ("the metaphor of aggregates for beings"), but requires some thought to figure out as to why it's a metaphor (aggregates as impersonal heaps transferred to represent "living" beings, etc.)

Mettā,

Bryan




From: "Bryan Levman bryan.levman@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: "palistudy@yahoogroups.com" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2016 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] Khandhesu....Paramatthajotika

 
Dear Bhante,
 
The whole passage seems to be explicating a question posed just before the section you quote:

“katame dhammā sapaccayā? pañcakkhandhā — rūpakkhandho … pe … viññāṇakkhandho”ti (dha. sa. 1089) vacanato khandhānaṃyeva paccayaṭṭhitikattaṃ yuttaṃ, sattānantu ayuttamevetaṃ vacanaṃ bhaveyyāti. na kho panetaṃ evaṃ daṭṭhabbaṃ. kasmā V.61? sattesu khandhopacārasiddhito.

In the statement, “Which dhammas are accompanied by conditions? the five aggregates (are listed)”, the condition of just the aggregates being dependent on conditions is appropriate (to say), but that expression may be inappropriate for beings. But that should not be regarded that way. Why? Because of the establishment of the upacāra of aggregates for beings.
 
Here I would translate upacāra as “usage”, that is, “because of the establishment of the usage of aggregates for beings,” (sattesu khandhopacārasiddhito), “usage” being one of upacāra’s standard meanings. Understanding upacāra as “usage” then validates the parallelism, that is, just as the usage of aggregates for beings is established (custom), so the usage of village for houses is established. The parallelism does not work on any other level, as you note, because the aggregates are an ultimate truth and village is just a concept. But I think the commentator is just saying that the words are interchangeable. Similarly one can say that the aggregates are dependent on food or that beings are dependent on food – this is an established usage (ayaṃ upacāro siddho).  Therefore the sentence in question would read (using your translation),
 
“And, since it is the aggregates that are born, grow old, and die in the supreme sense, the usage (upacāra) of the aggregates for beings should be understood to have been shown as established by the Blessed One when he said, ‘You bhikkhu, are moment by moment being born, ageing, and dying.’”
 
Metta,
 
Bryan
 


From: "Bhikkhu Bodhi venbodhi@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2016 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] Khandhesu....Paramatthajotika

 
Dear All,
For the meaning of upacāra here, it is useful to look at the entire passage from the Paramattha-jotikā:
Sattesu hi khandhopacāro siddho. Kasmā? Khandhe upādāya paññāpetabbato. Kathaṃ? Gehe gāmopacāro viya. Seyyathāpi hi gehāni upādāya paññāpetabbattā gāmassa ekasmimpi dvīsu tīsupi vā gehesu daḍḍhesu ‘‘gāmo daḍḍho’’ti evaṃ gehe gāmopacāro siddho, evameva khandhesu paccayaṭṭhena āhāraṭṭhitikesu ‘‘sattā āhāraṭṭhitikā’’ti ayaṃ upacāro siddhoti veditabbo. Paramatthato ca khandhesu jāyamānesu jīyamānesu mīyamānesu ca ‘‘khaṇe khaṇe tvaṃ bhikkhu jāyase ca jīyase ca mīyase cā’’ti vadatā bhagavatā tesu sattesu khandhopacāro siddhoti dassito evāti veditabbo.

...  For the aggregates have been established as an upacāra in relation to beings. Why? Because [beings] are to be designated on the basis of the aggregates. How so? In the way a village is an upacāra in relation to houses. For because a village is designated on the basis of the houses, if even one, two, or three houses of the village have burnt down, it is said "the village has burnt down'; thus the village is established as an upacāra in relation to [on the basis of?] the houses. In the same way, when there are the aggregates that stand [in dependence] on nutriment, which has the sense of conditions, this upacāra should be understood to be established: "Beings stand [in dependence] on nutriment." And, since it is the aggregates that are born, grow old, and die in the supreme sense, the upacāra of the aggregates [as representing] those beings should be understood to have been shown as established by the Blessed One when he said, "You, bhikkhu, are moment by moment being born, ageing, and dying."
There seems to be a certain asymmetry between the two statements, however, assuming that the compound X-upacāra functions in the same way in the two instances here:
(1) Sattesu hi khandhopacāro; and (2) Gehe gāmopacāro.
In the simile (= 2), the houses are "relatively" real, while the village is a mere concept.
In the application (= 1), the aggregates are real, while the being is a mere concept.
Yet the text seems to be saying (if the grammar of the two statements is parallel) that the aggregates are an upacāra for beings, but the village an upacāra for the houses.
Am I misinterpreting the passage?
Bhikkhu Bodhi


On 10/20/2016 10:06 AM, Bryan Levman bryan.levman@... [palistudy] wrote:
 
Dear Robert,

I am translating upacāro as "metaphor" which is the meaning it seems to have in this context. For reference see MW sv upacāra and Bhikkhu Ñāṇamoli's Pali-English  Glossary of Buddhist Technical Terms (ed. by Bhikkhu Bodhi), page 129,

Best wishes,

Bryan




From: "robert kirk rjkjp1@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: "palistudy@yahoogroups.com" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>; "palistudy@yahoogroups.com" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2016 2:03 AM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] Khandhesu....Paramatthajotika

 

hi
where does it say "metaphor"
robert

 
Hi Rahula,

Your translation is good. The Burmese punctuates  khaṇe kaṇe as modifying the second part of the sentence, but it changes the meaning very little. The whole sentence reads:

paramatthato ca "khandhesu jāyamānesu jīyamānesu mīyamānesu ca khaṇe khaṇe tvaṃ bhikkhu jāyase ca jīyase ca mīyase cā”ti vadatā bhagavatā tesu sattesu khandhopacāro siddhoti dassito evāti veditabbo.Pj 1, 78.


From an ultimate point of view, it should be known that the Bhagavan has demonstrated that, "The metaphor of the aggregates has been established in regard to these beings" when he said, "While the aggregates are born, decay and die, monks, you are born, decay and die."
I haven't found the quote anywhere.If anyone has seen it please let us know the source,

Best wishes,

Bryan


From: "Rahula rahula_80@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2016 7:58 AM
Subject: [palistudy] Khandhesu....Paramatthajotika

 
Hi,

How would you translate this text:

Khandhesu jāyamānesu jīyamānesu mīyamānesu ca khaṇe khaṇe tvaṃ bhikkhu jāyase ca jīyase ca mīyase cā

Draft translation:

As the aggregates arises, decay and passes away moment to moment, you, bhikkhu, are born, aged and die.

Thanks,
Rahula






-- 
Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
Chuang Yen Monastery
2020 Route 301
Carmel NY 10512
U.S.A.

Sabbe sattā averā hontu, abyāpajjā hontu, anighā hontu, sukhī hontu!
願眾生無怨，願眾生無害，願眾生無惱，願眾生快樂！
May all beings be free from enmity, free from affliction, free from distress. May they be happy!




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