Re: How to understand "vedanā"

I don't know if we can draw a sharp distinction between vedanā and saññā or maybe other mental saṇkhāras. I think I remember reading a Sutta somewhere where Ven. Sāriputta says that at least saññā and viññāṇaṃ are conjoined, not disjoined. The only distinction is that while saññā is to be developed, viññāṇaṃ is to be comprehended. In the same way, I think, the only distinction between vedanā and saññā is that the former is to be comprehended.

But I think I understand your question since I came from a similar view earlier. With our westernized view of the world, we care a lot about exact definitions and delineations. This is this, and that is that. This way we know what each thing is - or so we think. But then these definitions are just names assigned to what we can picture in our minds. In reality, the Buddha never taught with the intention to define things exactly. He taught with the purpose of liberation in mind. So these words don't have an exact meaning. They are to be comprehended in connection with liberation.

So, for example, in the paticcasamuppāda there are twelve links. But if we see them as pairs of cause and effect, we can form several of them, each of which has one link that forms the cause, and the other link that forms the effect. Sometimes the same link that is a cause in one pair, is the result in a different pair. When one sees any any one pair in terms of dukkha, samudaya, nirodha, and magga, through direct experience, i.e. he or she now knows how to apply the magga with regard to any of the pairs, then one gains stream-entry. Full understanding and complete mastery over the whole nexus is nibbāna.

In the same way, it doesn't really matter whether vedanā is defined this way or that. Instead, take for example the pair of saḷāyatana paccayā vedanā. If there is dukkha-vedanā, then the cause for that is to be abandoned, and the vedanā itself is to be comprehended. Saḷāyatanaṃ is the proximate cause, but how do we abandon the senses?! We need them to live! Well, we can develop the saññā that they are not self. It is because of our saññā that we identify with them and take the vedanā they cause for granted and suffer with them. So when an opposing saññā is developed, it can counteract the pre-existing one leading to a release from dukkha-vedanā. But to develop such a saññā itself we need the manas! In a different context all saññā will have to be abandoned, because they cause a subtle form of dukkha. But until the time we are facing gross dukkha, we need to use some of the pañcakkhandhā, to attain freedom from that dukkha.

So the Buddha's teaching wasn't one of exact definitions, but is a very practical and functional teaching. He taught us how to use these things, and didn't dwell over exact definitions so so much.

Thanks,
Balaji

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016, 7:19 AM Dmytro Ivakhnenko aavuso@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Thank you, Bhante Bodhi and Bhante Yuttadhammo,

Cetasikā vedanā, - those that arise due to the contact of 'mano':

394.  "Katama~nca,  bhikkhave,  domanassa.m?  Ya.m  kho,  bhikkhave,  cetasika.m  dukkha.m cetasika.m  asaata.m  manosamphassaja.m  dukkha.m asaata.m vedayita.m, ida.m vuccati, bhikkhave, domanassa.m. 

(DN 22, Mahasatipatthana sutta)

for example, when one recalls acquisition or non-acquisition:

Tattha katamāni cha gehasitāni somanassāni: cakkhuviññeyyānaṃ rūpānaṃ iṭṭhānaṃ kantānaṃ manāpānaṃ manoramānaṃ lokāmisapaṭisaṃyuttānaṃ paṭilābhaṃ vā paṭilābhato samanupassato pubbe vā paṭiladdhapubbaṃ atītaṃ niruddhaṃ vipariṇataṃ samanussarato uppajjati somanassaṃ, yaṃ evarūpaṃ somanassaṃ idaṃ vuccati gehasitaṃ somanassaṃ. 
"And what are the six kinds of household joy (somanassa)? The joy that arises when one regards as an acquisition the acquisition of forms cognizable by the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, connected with worldly baits — or when one recalls the previous acquisition of such forms after they have passed, ceased, & changed: That is called household joy. (Similarly with sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, & ideas.)
Tattha katamāni cha gehasitāni domanassāni: cakkhuviññeyyānaṃ rūpānaṃ iṭṭhānaṃ kantānaṃ manāpānaṃ manoramānaṃ lokāmisapaṭisaṃyuttānaṃ appaṭilābhaṃ vā appaṭilābhato samanupassato pubbe vā appaṭiladdhapubbaṃ atītaṃ niruddhaṃ vipariṇataṃ samanussarato uppajjati domanassaṃ. 
"And what are the six kinds of household distress (domanassa)? The distress that arises when one regards as a non-acquisition the non-acquisition of forms cognizable by the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, connected with worldly baits — or when one recalls the previous non-acquisition of such forms after they have passed, ceased, & changed: That is called household distress. (Similarly with sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, & ideas.)
Salayatana-vibhanga sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.137.than.html

indeed arise not due to the external stimulation of sense organs, if we understand sense organs in their Western definition. Yet in ancient Indian worldview, 'mano' belongs to sense faculties.

In the case of four jhanas the highest enjoyment fills the body: 

Seyyathāpi bhikkhave uppaliniyaṃ vā paduminiyaṃ vā puṇḍarīkiniyaṃ vā appekaccāni uppalāni vā padumāni vā puṇḍarīkāni vā udake jātāni udake saṃvaddhāni udakānuggatāni anto nimuggaposīni, tāni yāvaggā yāva mūlā sītena vārinā abhisannāni parisannāni paripūrāni paripphuṭāni. Nāssa kiñci sabbāvataṃ uppalānaṃ vā padumānaṃ vā puṇḍarīkānaṃ vā sītena vārinā apphuṭaṃ assa. Evameva kho bhikkhave bhikkhu imameva kāyaṃ nippītikena sukhena abhisandeti parisandeti paripūreti parippharati. Nāssa kiñci sabbāvato kāyassa nippītikena sukhena apphuṭaṃ hoti. Ariyassa bhikkhave pañcaṅgikassa sammāsamādhissa ayaṃ tatiyā bhāvanā. 

 

"Just as in a blue-, white-, or red-lotus pond, there may be some of the blue, white, or red lotuses which, born and growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated and pervaded, suffused and filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those blue, white, or red lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture. This is the third development of the five-factored noble right concentration.

 

(4) Puna ca paraṃ bhikkhave bhikkhu sukhassa ca pāhāṇā dukkhassa ca pahāṇā pubbeva somanassadomanassānaṃ atthaṅgamā adukkhaṃ asukhaṃ upekkhāsatipārisuddhiṃ catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.

"And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress — he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.028.than.html

In Salla sutta two kinds of  vedanā are placed alongside, as similar phenomena:

assutavā, bhikkhave, puthujjano dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno socati kilamati paridevati urattāḷiṃ kandati sammohaṃ āpajjati. So dve vedanā vedayati—kāyikañca, cetasikañca. Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, purisaṃ sallena vijjheyya. Tamenaṃ dutiyena sallena anuvedhaṃ vijjheyya. Evañhi so, bhikkhave, puriso dvisallena vedanaṃ vedayati. Evameva kho, bhikkhave, assutavā puthujjano dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno socati kilamati paridevati urattāḷiṃ kandati sammohaṃ āpajjati. So dve vedanā vedayati—kāyikañca, cetasikañca.
uninstructed worldling is being contacted by a painful feeling, he sorrows, grieves, and laments; he weeps beating his breast and becomes distraught. He feels two feelings—a bodily one and a mental one. Suppose they were to strike a man with a dart, and then they would strike him immediately afterwards with a second dart, so that the man would feel a feeling caused by two darts. So too, when the uninstructed worldling is being contacted by a painful feeling ... he feels two feelings—a bodily one and a mental one.
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn36.6

So evidently the heightened introspection ability of ancient Indian Ariyas, and their ability to induce intense experiences not related to input from bodily senses, helped them to notice and categorize vedanā that arise due to contact of mano and are felt in the body similarly to vedanā that arise due to contact of  five sense organs.

Seems like there's no exact equivalent in English, however, the term 'sensation' allows some space for sensations that arise due to contact of 'mano':

Sensation, 1 ... a) a feeling, especially a strange one, caused by a particular experience
He had the uncomfortable sensation that he was being watched.
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/sensation#sensation_7

and helps to distinguish vedanā from emotions.

Best wishes,
                       Dmytro

2016-08-18 14:24 GMT+03:00 Yuttadhammo Bhikkhu yuttadhammo@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>:

 

Dear friends,

Also the Buddha's identification of the highest enjoyment of vedana as being the vedana associated with the four jhanas, which i think are clearly dissociated from bodily pleasure:

yasmiṃ samaye, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā pubbeva somanassadomanassānaṃ atthaṅgamā adukkhamasukhaṃ upekkhāsatipārisuddhiṃ catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati, neva tasmiṃ samaye attabyābādhāyapi ceteti, na parabyābādhāyapi ceteti, na ubhayabyābādhāyapi ceteti; abyābajjhaṃyeva tasmiṃ samaye vedanaṃ vedeti. abyābajjhaparamāhaṃ, bhikkhave, vedanānaṃ assādaṃ vadāmi.

- M 31

On Aug 18, 2016 7:11 AM, "Bhikkhu Bodhi venbodhi@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Dear Dmytro,

Please see Samyutta Nikaya 48.38 (cited just below). This shows that vedanā includes joy (somanassa) and sadness (domanassa) as well as mental neutral feeling (cetasikaṃ vā n'eva sātaṃ n'āsātaṃ vedayitaṃ). It is hard to identify these with physical sensations. I therefore think that "feeling" is a more satisfactory rendering of vedanā than "sensation," which has a narrow bodily reference.

With best wishes,

Bhikkhu Bodhi

508. ‘‘Pañcimāni, bhikkhave, indriyāni. Katamāni pañca? Sukhindriyaṃ, dukkhindriyaṃ, somanassindriyaṃ, domanassindriyaṃ, upekkhindriyaṃ.

‘‘Katamañca, bhikkhave, sukhindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, kāyikaṃ sukhaṃ, kāyikaṃ sātaṃ, kāyasamphassajaṃ sukhaṃ sātaṃ vedayitaṃ – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sukhindriyaṃ.

‘‘Katamañca, bhikkhave, dukkhindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, kāyikaṃ dukkhaṃ, kāyikaṃ asātaṃ, kāyasamphassajaṃ dukkhaṃ asātaṃ vedayitaṃ – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, dukkhindriyaṃ.

‘‘Katamañca, bhikkhave, somanassindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, cetasikaṃ sukhaṃ, cetasikaṃ sātaṃ, manosamphassajaṃ sukhaṃ sātaṃ vedayitaṃ – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, somanassindriyaṃ.

‘‘Katamañca, bhikkhave, domanassindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, cetasikaṃ dukkhaṃ, cetasikaṃ asātaṃ, manosamphassajaṃ dukkhaṃ asātaṃ vedayitaṃ – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, domanassindriyaṃ.

‘‘Katamañca, bhikkhave, upekkhindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, kāyikaṃ vā cetasikaṃ vā neva sātaṃ nāsātaṃ vedayitaṃ – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, upekkhindriyaṃ.

‘‘Tatra, bhikkhave, yañca sukhindriyaṃ yañca somanassindriyaṃ, sukhā sā vedanā daṭṭhabbā. Tatra, bhikkhave, yañca dukkhindriyaṃ yañca domanassindriyaṃ, dukkhā sā vedanā daṭṭhabbā. Tatra, bhikkhave, yadidaṃ upekkhindriyaṃ, adukkhamasukhā sā vedanā daṭṭhabbā. Iti kho, bhikkhave, imāni pañcindriyāni pañca hutvā tīṇi honti, tīṇi hutvā pañca honti pariyāyenā’’ti. Aṭṭhamaṃ

On 8/18/2016 3:20 AM, Dmytro Ivakhnenko aavuso@... [palistudy] wrote:

 

Dear Pāli friends,

From my studies of "vedanā" usage, with the help of the comprehensive thesis

Salkin, Sean
A survey of the use of the term vedanā (“sensations”) in the Pali Nikayas
http://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/handle/2123/2075

and other texts and studies, particularly Sivaka sutta:

“Pitta­sa­muṭṭhā­nā­nipi kho, sīvaka, idhekaccāni vedayitāni uppajjanti. Sāmampi kho etaṃ,sīvaka, veditabbaṃ yathā pitta­sa­muṭṭhā­nā­nipi idhekaccāni vedayitāni uppajjanti. Lokassapi kho etaṃ, sīvaka, saccasammataṃ yathā pitta­sa­muṭṭhā­nā­nipi idhekaccāni vedayitāni uppajjanti. Tatra, sīvaka, ye te samaṇabrāhmaṇā evaṃvādino evaṃdiṭṭhino: ‘yaṃ kiñcāyaṃ purisapuggalo paṭisaṃvedeti sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā aduk­kha­ma­su­khaṃ vā sabbaṃ taṃ pubbekatahetū’ti. Yañca sāmaṃ ñātaṃ tañca atidhāvanti, yañca loke saccasammataṃ tañca atidhāvanti. Tasmā tesaṃ samaṇab­rāhma­ṇā­naṃ micchāti vadāmi.
“Some feelings, Sīvaka, arise here originating from bile disorders: that some feelings arise here originating from bile disorders one can know for oneself, and that is considered to be true in the world. Now when those ascetics and brahmins hold such a doctrine and view as this, ‘Whatever a person experiences, whether it be pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, all that is caused by what was done in the past,’ they overshoot what one knows by oneself and they overshoot what is considered to be true in the world. Therefore I say that this is wrong on the part of those ascetics and brahmins.

Semha­sa­muṭṭhā­nā­nipi kho, sīvaka … pe … vāta­sa­muṭṭhā­nā­nipi kho, sīvaka … pe … sanni­pāti­kā­nipi kho, sīvaka … pe … utu­pari­ṇāma­jānipi kho, sīvaka … pe … visama­pari­hāra­jānipi kho, sīvaka … pe … opakkamikānipi kho, sīvaka … pe … kamma­vipāka­jānipi kho, sīvaka, idhekaccāni vedayitāni uppajjanti. Sāmampi kho etaṃ, sīvaka, veditabbaṃ. Yathā kamma­vipāka­jānipi idhekaccāni vedayitāni uppajjanti; lokassapi kho etaṃ, sīvaka, saccasammataṃ. Yathā kamma­vipāka­jānipi idhekaccāni vedayitāni uppajjanti; tatra, sīvaka, ye te samaṇabrāhmaṇā evaṃvādino evaṃdiṭṭhino: ‘yaṃ kiñcāyaṃ purisapuggalo paṭisaṃvedeti sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā aduk­kha­ma­su­khaṃ vā sabbaṃ taṃ pubbekatahetū’ti. Yañca sāmaṃ ñātaṃ tañca atidhāvanti yañca loke saccasammataṃ tañca atidhāvanti. Tasmā ‘tesaṃ samaṇab­rāhma­ṇā­naṃ micchā’ti vadāmī”ti.“

 

Some feelings, Sīvaka, arise here originating from phlegm disorders ... originating from wind disorders … originating from an imbalance of the three … produced by change of climate ... produced by careless behaviour … caused by assault … produced as the result of kamma: that some feelings arise here produced as the result of kamma one can know for oneself, and that is considered to be true in the world. Now when those ascetics and brahmins hold such a doctrine and view as this, ‘Whatever a person experiences, whether it be pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, all that is caused by what was done in the past,’ they overshoot what one knows by oneself and they overshoot what is considered to be true in the world. Therefore I say that this is wrong on the part of those ascetics and brahmins.”

 

https://suttacentral.net/pi/sn36.21
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn36.21

I concluded that  "vedanā" are physical sensations. Am I missing something?

Best wishes,
                        Dmytro

-- 
Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
Chuang Yen Monastery
2020 Route 301
Carmel NY 10512
U.S.A.

Sabbe sattā averā hontu, abyāpajjā hontu, anighā hontu, sukhī hontu!
願眾生無怨，願眾生無害，願眾生無惱，願眾生快樂！
May all beings be free from enmity, free from affliction, free from distress. May they be happy!