From: Yuttadhammo Bhikkhu
Message: 4671
Date: 2016-08-18
Dear friends,
Also the Buddha's identification of the highest enjoyment of vedana as being the vedana associated with the four jhanas, which i think are clearly dissociated from bodily pleasure:
yasmiṃ samaye, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā pubbeva somanassadomanassānaṃ atthaṅgamā adukkhamasukhaṃ upekkhāsatipārisuddhiṃ catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati, neva tasmiṃ samaye attabyābādhāyapi ceteti, na parabyābādhāyapi ceteti, na ubhayabyābādhāyapi ceteti; abyābajjhaṃyeva tasmiṃ samaye vedanaṃ vedeti. abyābajjhaparamāhaṃ, bhikkhave, vedanānaṃ assādaṃ vadāmi.
- M 31
Dear Dmytro,
Please see Samyutta Nikaya 48.38 (cited just below). This shows that vedanā includes joy (somanassa) and sadness (domanassa) as well as mental neutral feeling (cetasikaṃ vā n'eva sātaṃ n'āsātaṃ vedayitaṃ). It is hard to identify these with physical sensations. I therefore think that "feeling" is a more satisfactory rendering of vedanā than "sensation," which has a narrow bodily reference.
With best wishes,
Bhikkhu Bodhi
508. ‘‘Pañcimāni, bhikkhave, indriyāni. Katamāni pañca? Sukhindriyaṃ, dukkhindriyaṃ, somanassindriyaṃ, domanassindriyaṃ, upekkhindriyaṃ.
‘‘Katamañca, bhikkhave, sukhindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, kāyikaṃ sukhaṃ, kāyikaṃ sātaṃ, kāyasamphassajaṃ sukhaṃ sātaṃ vedayitaṃ – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sukhindriyaṃ.
‘‘Katamañca, bhikkhave, dukkhindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, kāyikaṃ dukkhaṃ, kāyikaṃ asātaṃ, kāyasamphassajaṃ dukkhaṃ asātaṃ vedayitaṃ – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, dukkhindriyaṃ.
‘‘Katamañca, bhikkhave, somanassindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, cetasikaṃ sukhaṃ, cetasikaṃ sātaṃ, manosamphassajaṃ sukhaṃ sātaṃ vedayitaṃ – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, somanassindriyaṃ.
‘‘Katamañca, bhikkhave, domanassindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, cetasikaṃ dukkhaṃ, cetasikaṃ asātaṃ, manosamphassajaṃ dukkhaṃ asātaṃ vedayitaṃ – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, domanassindriyaṃ.
‘‘Katamañca, bhikkhave, upekkhindriyaṃ? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, kāyikaṃ vā cetasikaṃ vā neva sātaṃ nāsātaṃ vedayitaṃ – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, upekkhindriyaṃ.
‘‘Tatra, bhikkhave, yañca sukhindriyaṃ yañca somanassindriyaṃ, sukhā sā vedanā daṭṭhabbā. Tatra, bhikkhave, yañca dukkhindriyaṃ yañca domanassindriyaṃ, dukkhā sā vedanā daṭṭhabbā. Tatra, bhikkhave, yadidaṃ upekkhindriyaṃ, adukkhamasukhā sā vedanā daṭṭhabbā. Iti kho, bhikkhave, imāni pañcindriyāni pañca hutvā tīṇi honti, tīṇi hutvā pañca honti pariyāyenā’’ti. Aṭṭhamaṃ
On 8/18/2016 3:20 AM, Dmytro Ivakhnenko aavuso@... [palistudy] wrote:
Dear Pāli friends,
From my studies of "vedanā" usage, with the help of the comprehensive thesis
Salkin, Sean
A survey of the use of the term vedanā (“sensations”) in the Pali Nikayas
http://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/handle/2123/2075
and other texts and studies, particularly Sivaka sutta:
“Pittasamuṭṭhānānipi kho, sīvaka, idhekaccāni vedayitāni uppajjanti. Sāmampi kho etaṃ,sīvaka, veditabbaṃ yathā pittasamuṭṭhānānipi idhekaccāni vedayitāni uppajjanti. Lokassapi kho etaṃ, sīvaka, saccasammataṃ yathā pittasamuṭṭhānānipi idhekaccāni vedayitāni uppajjanti. Tatra, sīvaka, ye te samaṇabrāhmaṇā evaṃvādino evaṃdiṭṭhino: ‘yaṃ kiñcāyaṃ purisapuggalo paṭisaṃvedeti sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā sabbaṃ taṃ pubbekatahetū’ti. Yañca sāmaṃ ñātaṃ tañca atidhāvanti, yañca loke saccasammataṃ tañca atidhāvanti. Tasmā tesaṃ samaṇabrāhmaṇānaṃ micchāti vadāmi.
“Some feelings, Sīvaka, arise here originating from bile disorders: that some feelings arise here originating from bile disorders one can know for oneself, and that is considered to be true in the world. Now when those ascetics and brahmins hold such a doctrine and view as this, ‘Whatever a person experiences, whether it be pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, all that is caused by what was done in the past,’ they overshoot what one knows by oneself and they overshoot what is considered to be true in the world. Therefore I say that this is wrong on the part of those ascetics and brahmins.Semhasamuṭṭhānānipi kho, sīvaka … pe … vātasamuṭṭhānānipi kho, sīvaka … pe … sannipātikānipi kho, sīvaka … pe … utupariṇāmajānipi kho, sīvaka … pe … visamaparihārajānipi kho, sīvaka … pe … opakkamikānipi kho, sīvaka … pe … kammavipākajānipi kho, sīvaka, idhekaccāni vedayitāni uppajjanti. Sāmampi kho etaṃ, sīvaka, veditabbaṃ. Yathā kammavipākajānipi idhekaccāni vedayitāni uppajjanti; lokassapi kho etaṃ, sīvaka, saccasammataṃ. Yathā kammavipākajānipi idhekaccāni vedayitāni uppajjanti; tatra, sīvaka, ye te samaṇabrāhmaṇā evaṃvādino evaṃdiṭṭhino: ‘yaṃ kiñcāyaṃ purisapuggalo paṭisaṃvedeti sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā sabbaṃ taṃ pubbekatahetū’ti. Yañca sāmaṃ ñātaṃ tañca atidhāvanti yañca loke saccasammataṃ tañca atidhāvanti. Tasmā ‘tesaṃ samaṇabrāhmaṇānaṃ micchā’ti vadāmī”ti.“Some feelings, Sīvaka, arise here originating from phlegm disorders ... originating from wind disorders … originating from an imbalance of the three … produced by change of climate ... produced by careless behaviour … caused by assault … produced as the result of kamma: that some feelings arise here produced as the result of kamma one can know for oneself, and that is considered to be true in the world. Now when those ascetics and brahmins hold such a doctrine and view as this, ‘Whatever a person experiences, whether it be pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, all that is caused by what was done in the past,’ they overshoot what one knows by oneself and they overshoot what is considered to be true in the world. Therefore I say that this is wrong on the part of those ascetics and brahmins.”
https://suttacentral.net/pi/sn36.21
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn36.21
I concluded that "vedanā" are physical sensations. Am I missing something?
Best wishes,
Dmytro
-- Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Chuang Yen Monastery 2020 Route 301 Carmel NY 10512 U.S.A. Sabbe sattā averā hontu, abyāpajjā hontu, anighā hontu, sukhī hontu! 願眾生無怨，願眾生無害，願眾生無惱，願眾生快樂！ May all beings be free from enmity, free from affliction, free from distress. May they be happy!