Re: Tathāgata

 

Dear Bryan,

> Yes, good question. It does seem unproblematic on the surface. But I think people felt that the surface meaning - tathā gata or tathā āgata, thus gone or thus come (in the way of all previous Buddhas) - was too strained, not natural, and as Norman says (as per Steve Collins' reference), quoting Thomas, "in its use in the scriptures there īs no trace of the Sanskrit meaning contained in tathā and gata". 

 

IMHO, the popular English translation "thus gone" stems from the English translations of Mahayana literature.

Here's a excerpt from Mahaprajnaparamitasastra:

"Why is he called To t'o a k'ie t'o (tathāgata)?
1. He preaches the natures of the dharmas (dharmalakṣaṇa) in the way (tathā) that he has understood (gata) them.
2. In the way that the [previous] Buddhas have gone by the path of safety (yogakṣemamārga), thus (tathā) the [actual] Buddha is going (gata) and will not go on to new existences (punarbhāva).251
______
251 Cf. Sumaṅgala, I, p. 60-62 (second explanation)."

 

The interpretation "thus come" is embedded in the corresponding Chinese term 如來 or 如来 .

 

Careful study of Sutta and Atthakatha helps to sort out such interpretations as later ones. It is the interpretation "tathāni āgatoti tathāgato" which is given repeatedly in Atthakatha, and used in Suttanta.

Best wishes,
                      Dmytro

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From: "Yuttadhammo Bhikkhu yuttadhammo@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2016 7:21 AM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] Tathāgata

 

Thanks friends :)

It still seems confusing that the word might have come from Dravidian sources, esp. why Hurvitz seems so sure that it did, when it looks so familiarly Sanskritic. Bryan, why is tathaa gata or tathaa aagata unconvincing? It just doesn't seem like such a problematic word is all.

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

 

Dear Pali friends,

 

Here's my small study of explanations of this word in Sutta and Atthakatha, which points to the explanation: tathāni āgatoti tathāgato as the most substantiated,

 

http://dhamma.ru/forum/index.php?topic=724.0

with tathāni in the sense explaned in Tattha sutta:

‘‘Cattārimāni, bhikkhave, tathāni avitathāni anaññathāni. Katamāni cattāri? ‘Idaṃ dukkha’nti, bhikkhave, tathametaṃ avitathametaṃ anaññathametaṃ ; ‘ayaṃ dukkhasamudayo’ti tathametaṃ avitathametaṃ anaññathametaṃ; ‘ayaṃ dukkhanirodho’ti tathametaṃ avitathametaṃ anaññathametaṃ; ‘ayaṃ  dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti tathametaṃ avitathametaṃ anaññathametaṃ – imāni kho, bhikkhave, cattāri tathāni avitathāni anaññathāni.

Best wishes,

                    Dmytro

______________________________________________________________
> Od: "Steven Collins scollins951@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
> Komu: "palistudy@yahoogroups.com" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
> Datum: 13.03.2016 06:41
> Předmět: Re: [palistudy] Tathāgata
>

 

 

On tathāgata see K.R.Norman, Collected Papers IV 162-63.

Steve Collins

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From: "Bryan Levman bryan.levman@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: "palistudy@yahoogroups.com" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2016 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] Tathāgata

Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo,

The etymology of the word has long been a problem which is why Hurvitz suggests its origin amongst the indigenous peoples of India (Dravidian or Munda, most likely, but we don't know all the language groups that existed at the time of the Indo Aryan immigration).

Hurvitz is only echoing a suggestion made by Schayer in 1935 and Thomas in 1937.

There are indeed a lot of non Indo-Aryan words in theTipiṭaka, some of which I discuss in my article in Buddhist Studies Review (2013: "Cultural Remnants of the Indigenous Peoples in the Buddhist Scriptures", p. 145-80). These are mainly place names and names of fauna and flora unfamiliar to the immigrants which were incorporated into the Indo-Aryan language. But there are also a lot of technical terms. The Buddha's funeral, for example, does not follow a "normal" Indo-Aryan practice but is based on indigenous customs.

In my thesis, I briefly discuss the problem of tathāgāta, which I attach for your info (it also contains the references above). There is also a short summary of the problems with the word in Mayrhofer's Etymological Dictionary (1963) on page 472.

Best wishes,

Bryan

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From: "Yuttadhammo Bhikkhu yuttadhammo@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2016 5:23 PM
Subject: [palistudy] Tathāgata

 

Dear Friends,

I have just come across a curious passage in the introduction to a translation of the Lotus Sutra, by Leon Hurvitz:

"Without much doubt, tathāgata is a non-Indic word refurbished to have an Indic appearance long after it had come into current use among India's Buddhists."

I'm wondering if anyone here has any insight on the origin of this word as described in this quote - is the implication that it came from Proto-Indo-European?

Thanks,

Yuttadhammo