From: Balaji
Message: 4467
Date: 2015-11-14
Respected Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi and all,From the line of discussion, it is clear that both the expression referring to a person well-trained in the Vinaya and that referring to the Vinaya that is well-trained are well attested in Pali texts. Just would like to add an observation that perhaps verses in the Maṅgala-sutta mostly refer to qualities or actions, rather than person, as being highest blessings (maṅgalamuttamaṃ), as in the following example:On 14 November 2015 at 18:27, Chanida Jantrasrisalai <jchanida@...> wrote:Respected Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi and all,From the line of discussion, it is clear that both the expression referring to a person well-trained in the Vinaya and that referring to the Vinaya that is well-trained are well attested in Pali texts. Just would like to add an observation that perhaps verses in the Maṅgala-sutta mostly refer to qualities, rather than person, as being highest blessings (maṅgalamuttamaṃ), as in the following example:bāhusaccañca sippañca vinayo ca susikkhitosubhāsitā ca yā vācāOn 14 November 2015 at 18:02, Ellen Mooney vajiranani@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:This phrase is translated by the late Sayadaw U Silananda (one of the questioners at the 6th Sangha Council held in Rangoon) as “to be well-trained in moral conduct."
On Nov 15, 2015, at 07:20, Chris Clark chris.clark@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:------------------------------------Bhante,
As you are probably aware, this phrase is translated as “a discipline well-instructed” by Norman (SN trans.) and “a well-trained disciplining” by Ñāṇamoli (Khp trans.). Both are therefore consistent with Ven. Yuttadhammo's interpretation. From a digital search, the phrasing does appear to be fairly irregular though and the usual expression is, as you say, a person is well trained in something (locative). However, for a similar usage to the Maṅgalasutta, see Ja III 368:
no ce assa sakā buddhi vinayo vā susikkhito
vane andhamahiso va careyya bahuko jano.
“Were there not wisdom or well-trained discipline, many people would wander like a foolish buffalo in the forest.”
Regards,
Chris
---
Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo,
Perhaps your explanation is correct, but in two other passages where susikkhito occurs, it describes the person rather than the training:
(1) In the simile of the archer in SN 2:16 (Rohitassa Sutta), we find: seyyathāpi nāma daḷhadhammo dhanuggaho susikkhito katahattho katayoggo katūpāsano ... The commentary (Spk I 116) comments: Susikkhito ti dasa dvādasa vassāni dhanusippaṃ sikkhito. Note here that the sphere of training is in the accusative case.
(2) In Sumangala-vilasini III 962: ... Vessavaṇo pana dasabalassa vissāsiko kathāpavattane byatto susikkhito, tasmā vessavaṇo mahārājā bhagavantaṃ etadavoca. Here susikkhito describes the person (vessavana). The sphere of competence here is kathāpavattane, "in holding a conversation," which is locative, but may be governed by byatto rather than susikkhito.
Best wishes,
Bhikkhu Bodhi
On 11/14/2015 4:38 PM, Yuttadhammo Bhikkhu yuttadhammo@... [palistudy] wrote:
Bhante,
Not that I am an expert in Pali grammar, but is there some reason why it can't be a kammasaadhana formation (i.e. passive derivation):
"pa.n.d.itena susikkhiyatiiti susikkhito" - "It is well-studied by a wise person, therefore it is 'that which is well-studied'"
So, and as I've always took it, susikkhito is saying "a vinaya that is well-studied (i.e. well trained-in)".
On Nov 14, 2015 3:24 PM, "Bhikkhu Bodhi venbodhi@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Dear Pali Friends,
The Mangala Sutta contains the line: vinayo ca susikkhito. The cases strike me as discordant. On the basis of the meaning, I would expect to see _vinaye ca susikkhito_, “being well trained in discipline.” It is the person (indicated by the nominative) that is well trained, and the discipline in which one is trained.
Could the verse have been originally composed in an Eastern dialect that had the masculine nominative singular ending in _'e'_, so that, when it was transposed into Pāli, both 'e' terminations were turned into _'o'_, though the locative _vinaye_ should have been preserved? Can anyone comment on this?
Thank you in advance.
--
Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
Chuang Yen Monastery
2020 Route 301
Carmel NY 10512
U.S.A.
Posted by: Chris Clark <chris.clark@...>
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