Re: vitakka & vicara

From: Nyanatusita
Message: 4398
Date: 2015-08-28


Dear Petra and others,

In canonical and commentarial works oḷārika in the context of jhanas and meditation attainments is used to describe the coarseness of the lower attainment or its components in relation to the more subtle and superior higher one(s).

E.g. D I 37: Yadeva tattha vitakkitaṃ vicāritaṃ, etenetaṃ oḷārikaṃ akkhāyati. Yato kho, bho, ayaṃ attā vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ samādhijaṃ pītisukhaṃ dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati, ettāvatā kho, bho, ayaṃ attā paramadiṭṭhadhammanibbānaṃ patto hotī’ti. Ittheke sato sattassa paramadiṭṭhadhammanibbānaṃ paññapenti. .... Yadeva tattha pītigataṃ cetaso uppilāvitattaṃ, etenetaṃ oḷārikaṃ akkhāyati. Yato kho, bho, ayaṃ attā pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati, sato ca sampajāno, sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti, yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti ‘‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’’ti, tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati,..
D II 214: Seyyathāpi, bho, pamudā pāmojjaṃ jāyetha, evameva kho bho oḷārikānaṃ kāyasaṅkhārānaṃ paṭippassaddhiyā oḷārikānaṃ vacīsaṅkhārānaṃ paṭippassaddhiyā oḷārikānaṃ cittasaṅkhārānaṃ paṭippassaddhiyā uppajjati sukhaṃ, sukhā bhiyyo somanassaṃ
 M II 229: yadi rūpasaññānaṃ yadi arūpasaññānaṃ yadi ekattasaññānaṃ yadi nānattasaññānaṃ. ‘Natthi kiñcī’ti ākiñcaññāyatanameke abhivadanti appamāṇaṃ āneñjaṃ. ‘Tayidaṃ saṅkhataṃ oḷārikaṃ atthi kho pana saṅkhārānaṃ nirodho attheta’nti
Petaka 143: Iti paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ pañcaṅgavippahīnaṃ pañcaṅgasamannāgataṃ.Tesaṃyeva vitakkavicārānaṃ abhikkhaṇaṃ āsevanāya tassa tappoṇamānasaṃ hoti. Tassa vitakkavicārā oḷārikā khāyanti. Yañca pītisukhañca nekkhammañca oḷārikaṃ bhavati. Api ca samādhijā pīti rati ca jāyati. Tassa vicārārammaṇaṃ. Tesaṃ vūpasamā ajjhattaṃ ceto sampasīdati.

Paṭis-a (p. 332) explains the term oḷārikaṭṭhena in another context too: Idha peyyālena saṃkhittānaṃ byāpādādīnaṃ akusalānaṃ yathāvuttena atthena nānattaṃ veditabbaṃ. Vitakkavicārādīnaṃ pana heṭṭhimānaṃ heṭṭhimānaṃ uparimato uparimato oḷārikaṭṭhena nānattaṃ veditabbaṃ: ''... ''... of the unwholesome [states] of ill-will, and so on, the diversity is to be understood in the sense as said [before]. But of thinking and exploring and so on , the diversity is to be understood in the sense of coarseness of the lower [jhana factors] in relation to the higher [jhana factors].''

 The preceding yathāvuttena atthena ... veditabbaṃ ...indicates that aṭṭhena in oḷārikaṭṭhena ... veditabbaṃ is to be understood in the same sense.

Best,
            Bh Nt

On 8/27/2015 11:10 PM, petra kieffer-pülz kiepue@... [palistudy] wrote:
 

Dear Ven Nyanatusita and others,


I am well aware that -aṭṭhena, -atthena is very common in commentarial literature. That is why I first immediately had this meaning in mind. Since, however, -ṭṭha also is possible, and since the Sīhaḷa text, despite the fact that it very literally corresponds to the Pāli text,  has no word corresponding to attha the latter seemed more probable to me.

Best wishes,
Petra

Am 27.08.2015 um 19:26 schrieb Bryan Levman bryan.levman@... [palistudy]:

 

Dear Petra, Aleix, Ven. Nyanatusita,

Thanks for these references. The CPD also gives the meaning of -aṭṭhena as "in the sense of, in the capacity of" (page 63), as does Cone ("matter, meaning, sense", page 50). I suppose -bhāva is also possible in this context (from -stha, -ṭṭha), as the sandhi is the same oḷārik'-aṭṭhena and oḷarika-ṭṭhena

Best wishes,

Bryan


From: "Nyanatusita nyanatusita@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2015 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] vitakka & vicara

 
Dear Petra ,

 To follow up on my preceding message. The term -aṭṭhena is found many times in the Patisambhidamagga, being part of its method of analysis (aṭṭha is also used in other cases, such as the locative -aṭṭhe in Abhiññāpaññā ñātaṭṭhe ñāṇaṃ in its Mātikā), but it is also found a number of times in the Kathavatthu and Niddesa, e.g.:

 Kv 548: Dukkhasamudayopi dukkhoti? Āmantā. Kenaṭṭhenāti? Aniccaṭṭhena. (Cp. Paṭis I 163: kenaṭṭhena nīvaraṇā? Niyyānāvaraṇaṭṭhena nīvaraṇā.)
Kv 610: Rūpaṃ rūpaṭṭhena niyatanti? Āmantā.
Nidd I 66: Saṃvaraṭṭhena sīlaṃ; samādānaṭṭhena vataṃ – idaṃ vuccati sīlañceva vatañca..
Nidd II 554: Ekoti bhagavā pabbajjāsaṅkhātena eko, adutiyaṭṭhena eko, taṇhāya pahānaṭṭhena eko, …
 
It seems natural to me that -aṭṭhena is to be understood primarily as -atthena, unless the context makes it very clear that it means something else. In explanations such as Kenaṭṭhenāti kena sabhāvena in Nidd-a I 42, perhaps the commentators wanted to stres that the meaning/sense of something is its intrinsic nature. I am not familiar with commentarial Buddhist epistemology.
 
Best wishes,
                       Bhikkhu Nyanatusita



On 8/27/2015 1:19 PM, petra kieffer-pülz kiepue@... [palistudy] wrote:


 
Dear all.

one further remark. The Abhidhammatthasaṅgahamahāṭīkā is to the largest part  a quite literal translation of the Sinhalese Sannaya by Sāriputta, the Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha, and this part of the sentence in the Sinhalese template runs as follows: vitarkaya vicārayaṭa vaḍhā ōdārika heyin, which means "because vitarka [is] coarser than vicāra". 

Best,
Petra

Am 27.08.2015 um 08:45 schrieb Aleix Ruiz Falqués ruydaleixo@... [palistudy]:

 

Dear all,

The Maṇisāramañjūsāṭīkā on Abhid-s-mhṭ also has the interpretation "being". It glosses oḷārikaṭṭhena as oḷārikabhāvena.

Best wishes,
Aleix

2015-08-27 7:16 GMT+02:00 Petra Kieffer-Pülz kiepue@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>:
 
Dear Bryan,

Aleix and I spoke offline about this passage, and here ṭṭha actually is not from attha as I thought first too, but from ṭṭha (skt. sthā) meaning „being“. So also the translation by Wijeyarathne and Gethin of the Abhidh-s-mhṭ.

Best,
Petra

Am Aug 27, 2015 um 03:46 schrieb Bryan Levman bryan.levman@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>:


Dear Aleix,

According to the Critical Pali Dictionary, oḷārik'-aṭṭha has the meaning of "the sense of something coarse", and presumably sukkhum'-aṭṭha would mean the sense of something subtle (if the CPD ever gets to the s's). 

I am not really sure why vitakko is coarse and vicaro is subtle. Certainly the initial striking of a bell is loud and sudden, whereas the after-sound is more delicate and softer. How this exactly relates to the first jhāna is not clear to me, and it isn't explain in the Vin-a commentary that I can see. It relates vitakko to a bird flapping its wings to lift itself into flight, whereas vicāro is the bird with outstretched wings flying.

Maybe someone else has some ideas? 

Perhaps -ṭṭha might also come from tiṭṭhati with the meaning "standing in, being based on" (Cone 2010: 256),

Mettā, 

Bryan



From: "Aleix Ruiz Falqués ruydaleixo@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] vitakka & vicara

 
Dear Bryan,

I was wondering about the words oḷārikaṭṭhena and sukhumaṭṭhena. You translate "with coarse meaning" etc. but my first impression was that -ṭṭhena here is from verb tiṭṭhati, but I think I am wrong. How do you understand the simile? What does "with coarse meaning" mean?

I have not researched well but I found this passage in the Abhidhammaṭīkā:

Ettha ca vicārato oḷārikaṭṭhena tasseva pubbaṅgamaṭṭhena paṭhamaghaṇṭābhiravo viya cetaso paṭhamābhinipāto vitakko, anuravo viya anusañcaraṇaṃ vicāro. Yathā hi ghaṇṭābhighātajo paṭhamābhiravo anuravato oḷāriko, pubbaṅgamo ca hoti, evaṃ ārammaṇābhiropanaṭṭhena vitakko oḷāriko, pubbaṅgamo viya ca hoti. Tato sukhumaṭṭhena anumajjanasabhāvena ca ghaṇṭānuravo viya anupabandho vicāro. Vipphāravā cettha vitakko cittassa paṭhamuppattikāle cittassa paripphandanabhūto ākāse uppatitukāmassa sakuṇassa pakkhavikkhepo viya, padumābhimukhapāto viya ca gandhānubandhacetaso bhamarassa. Santavutti vicāro cittassa nātiparipphandanabhāvo, ākāse uppatitassa sakuṇassa pakkhappasāraṇaṃ viya, padumassa uparibhāge paribbhamanaṃ viya ca padumābhimukhapatitassa bhamarassa. Āgamaṭṭhakathāyaṃ pana vipariyāyena āgataṃ. Tathā ca vuttaṃ dukanipātaṭṭhakathāyaṃ–‘‘Ākāse gacchato mahāsakuṇassa ubhohi pakkhehi vātaṃ gahetvā pakkhe sannisīdāpetvā gamanaṃ viya ārammaṇe cetaso abhiniropanabhāvena pavatto vitakko, vātaggahaṇatthaṃ pakkhe phandāpayamānassa gamanaṃ viya anumajjanabhāvena pavatto vicāro’’ti. Tampi anupabandhena pavattiyaṃ yujjati. Tathā hi upacāre, appanāyaṃ vā santānena pavattiyaṃ vitakko niccalo hutvā ārammaṇaṃ anupavisitvā viya pavattati, na paṭhamābhinipāte viya pākaṭo hotīti.

Could ṭṭhena then refer to the object of the sadda, as sadda is one of the material phenomena... 
I would appreciate other points of view.  

Best wishes,
Aleix


2015-08-26 17:41 GMT+02:00 Bryan Levman bryan.levman@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>:


 
Hi Ven. Kumara,
 
The simile is found in Vin-a 1, 144 in a commentary on the paṭhamajjhāna:

oḷārikaṭṭhena ghaṇṭābhighātasaddo viya cetaso paṭhamābhinipāto vitakko, sukhumaṭṭhena anuravo viya anuppabandho vicāro.
 
(…vitakko is the first striking of the mind like the sound of contact with a bell, with a coarse meaning, and vicāro is the continuanace, like an echo, with a subtle meaning…)
 
Mettā,
 
Bryan
From: "Kumara Bhikkhu kumara.bhikkhu@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 6:01 AM
Subject: RE: [palistudy] vitakka & vicara

 
Ah. No wonder it seem suspiciously unSutta-ish. Thank, Chris.

Chris Clark chris.clark@... [palistudy] wrote thus at 11:11 AM 26-08-15:

>Dear Kumāra Bhikkhu,
>
>I'm not sure if this simile is found in the 
>suttas; however, it is found in the 
>Milindapañha (p. 62-63). Lance Cousins 
>discussed this passage, and similar ones, in his article:
>
>1992. "Vitakka/vitarka and vicāra". Indo-Iranian Journal 35 (2-3): 137-157.
>
>Regards,
>Chris
>
>---
>
>I read from a book that the Buddha compared them
>to "the sound of a bell when first struck" and
>"the reverberation of the bell". Has anyone seen such a sutta?
>
>with mettâ,
>Kumâra Bhikkhu, ven.
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>Posted by: Chris Clark <chris.clark@...>
>------------------------------------
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>

















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