Re: vitakka & vicara

 

Dear Bryan,

Aleix and I spoke offline about this passage, and here ṭṭha actually is not from attha as I thought first too, but from ṭṭha (skt. sthā) meaning „being“. So also the translation by Wijeyarathne and Gethin of the Abhidh-s-mhṭ.

Best,

Petra

Am Aug 27, 2015 um 03:46 schrieb Bryan Levman bryan.levman@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>:

Dear Aleix,

According to the Critical Pali Dictionary, oḷārik'-aṭṭha has the meaning of "the sense of something coarse", and presumably sukkhum'-aṭṭha would mean the sense of something subtle (if the CPD ever gets to the s's). 

I am not really sure why vitakko is coarse and vicaro is subtle. Certainly the initial striking of a bell is loud and sudden, whereas the after-sound is more delicate and softer. How this exactly relates to the first jhāna is not clear to me, and it isn't explain in the Vin-a commentary that I can see. It relates vitakko to a bird flapping its wings to lift itself into flight, whereas vicāro is the bird with outstretched wings flying.

Maybe someone else has some ideas? 

Perhaps -ṭṭha might also come from tiṭṭhati with the meaning "standing in, being based on" (Cone 2010: 256),

Mettā, 

Bryan

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From: "Aleix Ruiz Falqués ruydaleixo@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] vitakka & vicara

 

Dear Bryan,

I was wondering about the words oḷārikaṭṭhena and sukhumaṭṭhena. You translate "with coarse meaning" etc. but my first impression was that -ṭṭhena here is from verb tiṭṭhati, but I think I am wrong. How do you understand the simile? What does "with coarse meaning" mean?

I have not researched well but I found this passage in the Abhidhammaṭīkā:

Ettha ca vicārato oḷārikaṭṭhena tasseva pubbaṅgamaṭṭhena paṭhamaghaṇṭābhiravo viya cetaso paṭhamābhinipāto vitakko, anuravo viya anusañcaraṇaṃ vicāro. Yathā hi ghaṇṭābhighātajo paṭhamābhiravo anuravato oḷāriko, pubbaṅgamo ca hoti, evaṃ ārammaṇābhiropanaṭṭhena vitakko oḷāriko, pubbaṅgamo viya ca hoti. Tato sukhumaṭṭhena anumajjanasabhāvena ca ghaṇṭānuravo viya anupabandho vicāro. Vipphāravā cettha vitakko cittassa paṭhamuppattikāle cittassa paripphandanabhūto ākāse uppatitukāmassa sakuṇassa pakkhavikkhepo viya, padumābhimukhapāto viya ca gandhānubandhacetaso bhamarassa. Santavutti vicāro cittassa nātiparipphandanabhāvo, ākāse uppatitassa sakuṇassa pakkhappasāraṇaṃ viya, padumassa uparibhāge paribbhamanaṃ viya ca padumābhimukhapatitassa bhamarassa. Āgamaṭṭhakathāyaṃ pana vipariyāyena āgataṃ. Tathā ca vuttaṃ dukanipātaṭṭhakathāyaṃ–‘‘Ākāse gacchato mahāsakuṇassa ubhohi pakkhehi vātaṃ gahetvā pakkhe sannisīdāpetvā gamanaṃ viya ārammaṇe cetaso abhiniropanabhāvena pavatto vitakko, vātaggahaṇatthaṃ pakkhe phandāpayamānassa gamanaṃ viya anumajjanabhāvena pavatto vicāro’’ti. Tampi anupabandhena pavattiyaṃ yujjati. Tathā hi upacāre, appanāyaṃ vā santānena pavattiyaṃ vitakko niccalo hutvā ārammaṇaṃ anupavisitvā viya pavattati, na paṭhamābhinipāte viya pākaṭo hotīti.

Could ṭṭhena then refer to the object of the sadda, as sadda is one of the material phenomena... 

I would appreciate other points of view.  

Best wishes,
Aleix

2015-08-26 17:41 GMT+02:00 Bryan Levman bryan.levman@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>:

 

Hi Ven. Kumara,

 

The simile is found in Vin-a 1, 144 in a commentary on the paṭhamajjhāna:

oḷārikaṭṭhena ghaṇṭābhighātasaddo viya cetaso paṭhamābhinipāto vitakko, sukhumaṭṭhena anuravo viya anuppabandho vicāro.

 

(…vitakko is the first striking of the mind like the sound of contact with a bell, with a coarse meaning, and vicāro is the continuanace, like an echo, with a subtle meaning…)

 

Mettā,

 

Bryan

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From: "Kumara Bhikkhu kumara.bhikkhu@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 6:01 AM
Subject: RE: [palistudy] vitakka & vicara

 

Ah. No wonder it seem suspiciously unSutta-ish. Thank, Chris.

Chris Clark chris.clark@... [palistudy] wrote thus at 11:11 AM 26-08-15:

>Dear Kumāra Bhikkhu,

>Dear Kumāra Bhikkhuar="none">>
>I'm not sure if this simile is found in the 
>suttas; however, it is found in the 
>Milindapañha (p. 62-63). Lance Cousins 
>discussed this passage, and similar ones, in his article:
>
>1992. "Vitakka/vitarka and vicāra". Indo-Iranian Journal 35 (2-3): 137-157.
>
>Regards,
>Chris
>
>---
>
>I read from a book that the Buddha compared them
>to "the sound of a bell when first struck" and
>"the reverberation of the bell". Has anyone seen such a sutta?
>
>with mettâ,
>Kumâra Bhikkhu, ven.
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>Posted by: Chris Clark <chris.clark@...>
>------------------------------------
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
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