Re: vibhūta in AN 11.10

Respected Venerable Bodhi,
Dear Mr Cousins, Lennart and friends,

Thank you very much for your further evidence from different sources and
interesting discussions, which are all contributive to better understanding
of the dhamma and terms of interest.

As Lennart and Khristos have pointed out,  one word may have different
meanings in different context. Hence it seems necessary to me to not only
relying on the meanings of words or only aṭṭhakathās alone, but also pay
attention to the context of particular passages where the word is found.
Aṭṭhakathās, while providing some insight for better understanding of the
canon, might have been at some points misleading, in which case the ṭīkās
could have tried to re-interprete the same canonical passage in another
way, by resorting to some older sources such as the Nettipakaraṇa.

In case of vibhūta qualifying rūpa, it makes more sense to me to translate
vibhūta in the sense of clear, clarified, or transcended, as per Mr
Cousins' nice translation of the Niddesa. The meaning disappeared does not
seem to make sense, for indeed forms are still there, though not being
perceived.

But in case the term is qualifying 'perception of form,' it makes sense to
me to translate it as some kind of non-existent or disaapeared, as in the
case of saññāvedayitanirodha in which perception ceases.

This is how I understand it. Any comments or further suggestions are very
welcome.

Yours respectfully & mettā,
Chanida



On 16 October 2012 08:25, Lennart Lopin <novalis78@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Dear Jim, Lance
>
>
> > As I'll be leaving in a few days and be offline for 3 weeks, I don't have
> > much time left for this interesting descussion on the *real* meaning of
> > "vībhūtā" in AN 11.10. However, I'd like to add a few observations from
> my
> > own investigation of the meaning so far which may be of interest to some.
> > Keep in mind that in addition to the Tipiṭaka I also have a high regard
> for
> > the commentaries as well as the Pali grammar tradition...
> >
> > A look at the commentary to AN 11.10 with the gloss "pākaṭā" for
> "vibhūtā"
> > will lead one to Vism III.109-114 with its Mahāṭīkā explanation of
> > "vibhūtā"
> > as follows:
> >
> > " Vibhūtāti vipulārammaṇatāya supākaṭā, vaḍḍhitanimittatāya
> > appamāṇārammaṇabhāvena paribyattāti attho."
> >
> > "paribyattā" is obviously a synonym of "pākaṭā".
> >
> > Now in the Padamālā of the Saddanīti one will find much on the root "bhū"
> > and probably every word derived from it with explanations of their
> > meanings. Of particular interest is the explanation of "vibhavo" in the
> > five meanings: *dhanaṃ*, nibbānaṃ, sampatti, vināso, and ucchedadiṭṭhi.
>
> > The
> > meaning of "vibhavo" that comes closest to the Mahāṭīkā explanation of
> > "vibhūtā" is "dhanaṃ". Here is the Padamālā explanation:
> >
> > * dhanaṃ *pana bhavanti vaḍḍhanti vuddhiṃ viruuḷhiṃ vepullaṃ āpajjanti
>
> > sattā
> > etenāti vibhavo.``asītiko.tivibhavassa brāhmaṇassa putto hutvaa
> > nibbattī''ti
> > idametassatthassa sādhakaṃ vacanaṃ. idaṃ pana pariyāyavacanaṃ --
> >
> > dhanaṃ saṃ vibhavo dabbaṃ, saapateyyaṃ pariggaho.
> > oḍḍaṃ bhaṇḍaṃ sakaṃ attho, iccete dhanavācakā..
> >
> > Not sure if any of this helps. "vibhūṭā" in the sense of "abundantly
> > increased" ?? The Vism passage explains the difference between vibhūtā
> and
> > avibhūtā.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Jim
> >
>
> What I found quite fascinating is that Karl Eugen Neumann's singular
> interpretation of "vibhavataṇhā" as "Wohlseinsdurst" (thirst for
> well-being) seems to be reflected in the passage you quote above (glossing
> vibhavo with dhana) - and adds to what Lance has mentioned about Sanskrit
> sources prior to Pali. I am pretty sure Neumann was aware of the passage
> Jim quoted, though he does not mention it (he is known to have rejected the
> commentaries in his translation work having a very low opinion of
> Buddhaghosa. He usually tried to translate based on parallel passages
> (context) or his knowledge of other old Sanskrit parallels). In his notes
> on a passage in the DN 33 on *bhava *and *abhava *he writes:
>
> *Bei uns oben sind Dasein und Nichtsein die Grenzpunkte jeder möglichen
> > Betrachtung: bhavo und vibhavo, oder bhavo und abhavo, als Antithese.
> Wohl
> > davon zu unterscheiden ist der andere vibhavo, bei der Darstellung des
> > dreifachen Durstes, in der gesteigerten Triade kāmataṇhā bhavataṇhā
> > vibhavataṇhā: Geschlechtsdurst, Daseinsdurst, Wohlseinsdurst. Da
> > ist vi nicht die Präposition der Trennung sondern die der Verstärkung.*
>
> my rough translation:
>
> "In reference to our passage above Being and Non-Being are the boundaries
> > of any possible perception: bhavo and vibhavo or bhavo and abhavo as
> > anti-thesis. Very clearly to be differentiated has to be the other
> vibhavo,
> > when it appears in the the presentation of the threefold thirst, where it
> > appears in a climactical triad as kamatanha, bhavatanha, vibhavatanha:
> > sensual thirst, thirst for existence, thirst for being well. The "vi-" is
> > not a preposition of separation but a preposition of
> increase/strengthening.
>
> Neumann goes on to say that:
>
> "This usage of a preposition with opposing meanings is something which can
> be found quite often in Indian languages and is well known; it has
> developed into two opposite directions, similarly to our (German) prefix
> "ver-", for instance in "vermoegen, vergnuegen" vs. "verderben, vergessen"
> etc and in a double meaning "versehen, versprechen", etc. Vibhavo as
> Development, Power, Regency, Fullness, Abundance, Happiness is the more
> basic idea (see footnote 697) while the meaning of vibhavo = abhavo is
> relatively rare and usually appears as an anti-thesis. This double
> relationship was also known to Oldenburg in his first edition of "Buddha"
> but he later changed his mind, saying that he was mistaken...and thus
> shortens the triad into an anti-thesis.
>
> > *Diese je nachdem entgegengesetzte Geltung ein und derselben Präposition
> > ist im indischen Sprachgebrauch häufig anzutreffen, allbekannt; sie hat
> > analog wie bei unserem ver- nach einander gegenüberstehenden Seiten sich
> > entwickelt, vergl. vermögen, vergnügen – verderben, vergessen, und in
> > doppelter Bedeutung: versehn, versprechen u.a.m. Vibhavo als Entfaltung,
> > Macht, Herrschaft, Fülle, Glückseligkeit, gibt die überaus oft
> vorkommende
> > gewöhnliche Vorstellung, siehe die Belege in der Anm. 697<
> http://www.zeno.org/Philosophie/M/Gotamo+Buddho/Die+Reden+Gotamo+Buddhos/Aus+der+L%C3%A4ngeren+Sammlung/Anmerkungen
> >,
> > während der Gegensinn dazu, vibhavo = abhavo, recht selten erscheint, nur
> > wie in der Antithese bei uns oben. Dieses doppelte Verhältnis hatte
> > OLDENBERG einst erkannt, S. 130 der 1. Aufl. seines »Buddha«, ist aber
> > davon abgekommen und redet nun immer, 6. Aufl., S. 147, durch ein
> > Mißverständnis verleitet, vom gesteigerten vibhavo als von einer
> > Vergänglichkeit, nennt die vibhavataṇhā den »Vergänglichkeitsdurst«, ohne
> > den genetisch bedingten Unterschied noch zu merken, verkürzt also
> beliebig
> > den Begriff in der Triade auf den in der Antithese. Eine mehr und mehr
> > vertiefte Übung und Vertrautheit mit der Ausdrucksweise der älteren, und
> > nicht nur buddhistischen, Texte wird aber bald das schlecht angebrachte
> > einseitige Zustutzen als eine gewaltsame Beschränkung erkennen, die dem
> > indischen Sprachcharakter, wie schon gesagt, so fremd wie dem deutschen
> ist.
> > Der Daseinsdurst, bhavataṇhā, und seine weitere Entwicklung zum
> > Wohlseinsdurst, vibhavataṇhā, ein Dürsten, das eben auch noch die
> höchsten
> > himmlischen Seligkeiten durchzieht,... (Source: *
> >
> http://www.zeno.org/Philosophie/M/Gotamo+Buddho/Die+Reden+Gotamo+Buddhos/Aus+der+L%C3%A4ngeren+Sammlung/Anmerkungen
> > )
>
> His other comment on the same topic, also found in his DN translation runs
> like this:
>
> The Thirst for Well-being, the thirst to be well, vibhavatanha, was wrongly
> > identified as "desire for impermanence" (Oldenberg in his comments to
> > "Buddha" 5th ed.) or even worse "desire for (eternal) death" in Pischel's
> > "Leben und Lehre des Buddha". The 44th discourse of the MN [see Neumann's
> > comment there copied below] amkes this exegetical mis-understanding
> > apparent. *Vibhavo = vibhūti*, that is Well-being, wealth and abundance
> > is here the only possible most often used concept, as by the way, can
> also
> > verified from the Jatakam (I p. 145, II p. 283 etc) as mahavibhavo,
> > bahuvibhavo, etc. and also much earlier in the early ruti, from which I,
> to
> > bring just one example, may quote the Prasnopanisat V 4: "* sa somaloke
> > vibhūtim anubhūya punar āvartate*." The Wellbeing desire, vibhavatanha is
> > the increased desire to be, bhavatanha: the sensual pleasure desire is
> the
> > even more basic fundamental desire on which these two are based. This
> view,
> > that from the senusal desire the whole existence with all its worlds and
> > gods have come to be, was already an idea that the sages of ancient times
> > proclaimed in their verses of the Rksamhita, X1294:kāmas tad agre
> > samavartatādhi etc. with poetic emphasis but without any further
> > deductions or just those of cosmological nature. This ancient famous
> verse
> > was probably also known to Gotamo, probably in his youth when during a
> > presentation of vedic priests and their students of which there many
> living
> > in Kapilavatthu (see DN 3).
>
> *697<
> http://www.zeno.org/Philosophie/M/Gotamo+Buddho/Die+Reden+Gotamo+Buddhos/Aus+der+L%C3%A4ngeren+Sammlung/2.+Teil.+Gro%C3%9Fes+Buch/22.+Rede.+Die+Pfeiler+der+Einsicht#N8952
> >
> Der
> > Wohlseinstrieb, Durst nach Wohlsein, vibhavataṇhā, ist unzugehörig, bez.
> > auf Grundlage des hier wie so oft in die Irre schweifenden Kommentars von
> > OLDENBERG, Buddha, 5. Aufl. S. 150, als »Vergänglichkeitsdurst«, von
> > PISCHEL, Leben und Lehre des Buddha S. 28, gar als »Durst nach (ewigem)
> > Tode« verkannt worden: die [749]<
> http://www.zeno.org/Philosophie/L/Buddhos+Bd.+2> 44.
> > Rede der Mittleren Sammlung, S. 332, nebst Anm. 35<
> http://www.zeno.org/Philosophie/M/Gotamo+Buddho/Die+Reden+Gotamo+Buddhos/Aus+der+L%C3%A4ngeren+Sammlung/Anmerkungen
> >,
> > deckt das exegetische Mißverständnis auf. Vibhavo = vibhūti,d.i.
> > Wohlsein, Reichtum, Machtfülle, ist hier der einzig mögliche
> > sprachgebräuchliche Begriff, wie er sich übrigens auch aus dem Jātakam
> gut
> > nachweisen läßt, I p. 145, II p. 283 etc., als mahāvibhavo, bahuvibhavo,
> usw.;
> > und ebenso reichlich schon in der frühen ruti, aus der ich, nur
> > beispielsweise, Prasnopaniṣat V 4 anführe: sa somaloke vibhūtim anubhūya
> > punar āvartate. Der Wohlseinstrieb, vibhavataṇhā, ist der gesteigerte
> > Daseinstrieb, bhavataṇhā: der Geschlechtstrieb, kāmataṇhā, ist das
> > Urphänomen dazu. Diese Ansicht, daß nämlich aus dem Geschlechtstrieb das
> > ganze Dasein mit allen Welten und Göttern hervorgesprossen sei, hatte
> schon
> > ein Seher der Vorzeit in einem Spruche der Ṛksaṃhitā verkündet, X 1294:
> kāmas
> > tad agre samavartatādhi usw., mit tiefer dichterischer Ergriffenheit,
> > natürlich ohne weitere Schlüsse zu ziehn, oder doch nur solche
> > kosmogonischer Art. Der Spruch ist altberühmt und war gewiß auch von
> Gotamo
> > gehört worden, wahrscheinlich schon in seiner Jugend, beim Vortrag
> > vedischer Haus- und Hofpriester und ihrer Schüler, an denen es in
> > Kapilavatthu nicht gefehlt hat. Vergl. die 3. Rede S. 60. – Die vorher
> > gekennzeichnete Gnügensgier, der Gnügensreiz, nandirāgo, wird in einem
> > zugehörigen Gleichnisse des Saṃyuttakanikāyo (vol. IV p. 173/4) einem
> > verkappten Mörder verglichen, der mit gezücktem Dolche nachschleicht: so
> > ist osahagatā,overbunden, zu verstehn, als eine solche Begleitung. Cf.
> > Bruchst. d.R.v. 664 A.i.f.*
>
> Hellmuth Hecker has a discussion on Neumann's choice and his own analysis
> on the subject. Unfortunately I do not have a copy of his book "Die Lehre
> des Buddha und Karl Eugen Neumann" (Google Books Snipet link:
> here<
> http://books.google.com/books?id=73RtAAAAIAAJ&q=hecker+neumann+%22nicht+stichhaltig%22&dq=hecker+neumann+%22nicht+stichhaltig%22&source=bl&ots=fJ7jAcadVw&sig=Rojyq5J2063YTc0XI9wz-vv2plE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1G19UM6KDozo8QT184GABg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA
> >
> )
>
> Interestingly enough, in his comment on MN 44, Neumann mentions that the
> "vibhavo" can also "equally often" appear in the negative sense and in that
> case resemble the abhava as in "bhavabhava":
>
> [image: Inline image 1]
>
> mettāya,
>
> Lennart
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> 
>


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