Re: Question on Sabhiya sutta commentary

Dear Khristos,

with the sense of obligation you are fully right. Sorry, I inattentively wrote "will".


Regarding attanā it could well be the "self" here, taking into account that it is the thought of ignorant persons, and it possibly makes more sense here.


Best,
Petra





****************************************

Dr. Petra Kieffer-Pülz
Wilhelm-Külz-Strasse 2
99423 Weimar
Germany

Tel. 03643/ 770 447

kiepue@... (priv.)
petra.kieffer-puelz@...

www.pali.adwmainz.de




Am 04.05.2012 um 05:07 schrieb Khristos Nizamis:

> Dear friends,
>
> first of all, the satthāni = Skt. śāstrāni and Lance's reading of that
> passage seems very convincing.
>
> But, I'm sorry to say that (with all due respect) I’m still not quite
> satisfied with Petra's interpretation of “evarūpena attanā bhavitabban”ti. It
> doesn’t really seem to me to fit the requirement of a viparītasaññā. I did
> a bit of looking about, and the following is just for your consideration.
>
> The bhavitabbaṃ + instrumental formula seems to be fairly well-used in the
> Nikāyā. There are many examples:
>
> > āraññikenāvuso, bhikkhunā jāgariyaṃ anuyuttena bhavitabbaṃ. . . . āraññikenāvuso,
> bhikkhunā āraddhavīriyena bhavitabbaṃ. . . . āraññikenāvuso, bhikkhunā
> upaṭṭhitassatinā bhavitabbaṃ. . . . āraññikenāvuso, bhikkhunā samāhitena
> bhavitabbaṃ. . . . āraññikenāvuso, bhikkhunā paññavatā bhavitabbaṃ. (M
> I 471)
>
> Following Bodhi, who translates bhavitabbaṃ here with a sense of
> obligation, as "should be":
>
> > “A forest-dwelling monk should be devoted to wakefulness. . . . should
> be energetic . . . should be established in mindfulness . . . should be
> concentrated . . . should be wise.”
>
> A later period example from Mil 367 (where again it’s pretty clear that
> bhavitabbaṃ has a sense of ‘obligation’, ‘he should be, he must be’):
>
> > puna caparaṃ, mahārāja, kukkuṭo sacakkhukopi rattiṃ andho hoti. evameva
> kho, mahārāja, yoginā yogāvacarena anandheneva andhena viya bhavitabbaṃ,
> araññepi gocaragāme piṇḍāya carantenapi rajanīyesu
> rūpasaddagandharasaphoṭṭhabbadhammesu andhena badhirena mūgena viya
> bhavitabbaṃ, na nimittaṃ gahetabbaṃ, nānubyañjanaṃ gahetabbaṃ.
>
> > "Furthermore, great king, the cock, (although) having eyes, is blind at
> night. Just so, great king, the yogī practising yoga, (although) not
> blind, should be as if blind [yoginā yogāvacarena anandheneva andhena viya
> bhavitabbaṃ], and when wandering in the forest and alms-villages for alms,
> with respect to enticing forms, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles and
> thoughts, should as if blind, deaf, and mute [andhena badhirena mūgena viya
> bhavitabbaṃ], he should not grasp a sign, he should not grasp a detail."
>
> Although instrumental adjectives are predominant in these examples, I’m
> beginning to wonder now whether attanā in our clause might actually be a
> noun rather than a reflexive pronoun.
>
> Wijesekera, Syntax of the Cases, §65c, also cites the example "sucibhūtena
> attanā viharati", but (unlike Warder, cited earlier) he translates this as
> “he lives with his self purified”, and notes that the commentary glosses
> ‘self’ as ‘mind’; but unfortunately he doesn’t give a reference for this
> gloss. I couldn’t find such a gloss, but I did find that the commentaries
> do appear to read attanā in “sucibhūtena attanā viharati” as a noun, not a
> reflexive pronoun:
>
> > Root text: PTS D I 4: ‘adinnādānaṃ pahāya adinnādānā paṭivirato samaṇo
> gotamo dinnādāyī dinnapāṭikaṅkhī, athenena sucibhūtena attanā viharatī’ti
>
> > Comm.: PTS Sv I 72 (comm. to D I 4): na thenena athenena. athenattāyeva
> sucibhūtena. attanāti attabhāvena. athenaṃ sucibhūtaṃ attānaṃ katvā
> viharatīti vuttaṃ hoti.
>
> > Comm.: PTS Ps II 206 (comm. to the same formula at M I 179): na thenena
> athenena. athenattāyeva sucibhūtena. attanāti attabhāvena, athenaṃ
> sucibhūtaṃ attabhāvaṃ katvā viharatīti vuttaṃ hoti.
>
> So, one might read from Sv I 72 as: “Attanā = attabhāvena, i.e., ‘own
> nature, self-nature, individuality, personality’. He dwells having made a
> pure self [sucibhūtaṃ attānaṃ] by non-stealing.” A nominal reading seems
> to be reinforced by Ps II 206, which one might read as: “He dwells having
> made a pure self-nature/individuality/personality [sucibhūtaṃ attabhāvaṃ]
> by non-stealing.”
>
> If all of this is more or less plausible (but please correct me if I’m
> wrong), what bearing might it have on “evarūpena attanā bhavitabban”ti? Could
> it be read as “The (or my) self should be of such a form”, or perhaps even
> “The self must be of such a form”? The latter would make much more sense
> to me, given the context, if it is taken to express a viparītasaññā such
> as: “The self must be of such a form”, i.e., “So that must be what the
> ‘self’ looks like!”
>
> But I’ll have to leave this with you, now (really must get on with current
> commitments). Anyway, I hope this is might be of some help or use.
>
> Best wishes and metta,
>
> Khristos
>
> On 4 May 2012 10:03, Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Dear Petra,
> >
> > Thanks for the clarification,
> >
> >
> > Metta, Bryan
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: petra kieffer-Pülz <kiepue@...>
> > To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2012 3:28:54 PM
> >
> > Subject: Re: [palistudy] Question on Sabhiya sutta commentary
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Bryan,
> >
> > I understand that the heresies exist by upadisitabbavasena, not by
> > uppattivasena.
> > But by uppattivasena there exist two things, the saññakkharaṃ and the
> > viparītasañña. While saññakkharaṃ ist the conventional name (man, woman),
> > the wrong perception consists in the idea that one will become such a one
> > (i.e. a man or a woman), and this wrong perception is itself created by
> > wrong consideration, hearsay etc.(?).
> >
> > Since it is the wrong perception of the fools (pl.), the words evarūpena
> > attanā bhavitabban should probably also be rendered in the plural "We will
> > be such ones (i.e. men or women)."
> >
> > Best,
> > Petra
> > ****************************************
> >
> > Dr. Petra Kieffer-Pülz
> > Wilhelm-Külz-Strasse 2
> > 99423 Weimar
> > Germany
> >
> > Tel. 03643/ 770 447
> >
> > kiepue@... (priv.)
> > petra.kieffer-puelz@...
> >
> > www.pali.adwmainz.de
> >
> > Am 03.05.2012 um 18:38 schrieb Bryan Levman:
> >
> > > Dear Khris and Petra
> > >
> > > >"One/I shall become one having such a form". (evarūpena attanā
> > bhavitabban)
> > >
> > > I am a little unclear as to exactly what this means. The naming of "man,
> > woman" causes the foolish person to think that he/she is also of such a
> > form, i. e. what appears to be an independent entity. So I would translate,
> > "I (too) must be/exist in such a form." Is that how you see it?
> > >
> > > Metta, Bryan
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: petra kieffer-Pülz <kiepue@...>
> > > To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2012 10:21:59 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [palistudy] Question on Sabhiya sutta commentary
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hey Khris
> > > >
> > > > These (doctrines) – because, the sixty two speculative views named in
> > the
> > > > Brahmajāla (Sutta), taken together with identity view, are sixty
> > three; and
> > > > because these (doctrines) of recluses who are followers of other sects
> > > > (are) doctrines [satthāni] born of disputation, dependent upon having
> > to be
> > > > pointed out (i.e., learned), not in virtue of arising [i.e.,
> > (seemingly)
> > > > ‘naturally’].
> > > >
> > >
> > > This sentence as it stands now, has no end. Therefore the construction
> > must be something like:
> > >
> > > These (are heresies), because there are sixty three, ... and because
> > they are dependent upon having to be pointed out, not in virtue of arising
> > (naturally).
> > >
> > > The next sentence then is constructed in the following way:
> > >
> > > But by virtue of arising (naturally), there arise (uppajjati) that which
> > is saññā-akkhara (=)
> > > conventional name ... , and that which is inverted perception of
> > ignorant people (thinking) ...
> > >
> > > evarūpena attanā bhavitabbaṃ means "One/I shall become one having such a
> > form". For this type of construction see von Hinüber, Kasussyntax § 143.
> > >
> > > Usage of a part. fut. pass. with vasena are very common in younger
> > commentarial literature.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Petra
> > >
> > > > But, in virtue of arising [‘naturally’]: such as (for
> > > > example), the percept-word (i.e., perception constituted through a
> > > > linguistic term/category) [saññā-akkhara] ‘woman, man’, (which is) a
> > > > conventional name: in virtue of the wrong cogitation, tradition, etc.
> > of
> > > > the ignorant (naïve), there arises this inverted perception: “It must
> > come
> > > > into being/exist thus by its own material form [rūpena attanā]” (i.e.,
> > ‘it
> > > > is just what the conventional name says that it is, in virtue of its
> > own
> > > > intrinsic material nature’). In virtue of both such dependencies
> > > > (attachments), these (doctrines) arise, not (in virtue of) personal
> > > > experience [lit., ‘(seeing) what is in front of one’s own eyes’].
> > > >
> > > > With metta,
> > > > Khristos
> > > >
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> > > >
> > > >
> > >
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