Re: Question on Jātaka 277

isn't ruumaaya genative, "of ruuma"? or maybe locative f., "in ruuma"? 
That would explain romaka, with the strengthening of uu => o when adding
the suffix.

On 04/16/2012 03:41 AM, Bryan Levman wrote:
>
> Dear Chris,
>
> Yes, I agree, it could be a proper noun. In fact, that's the only
> thing that makes sense under the circumstances. It still, however,
> doesn't explain why we have so many variant forms (romaka, ropaka,
> ruumaya and dumaaya); the number of variants suggests that no one knew
> what the word meant and they tried to change it to something that made
> sense.
>
> Luders doesn't really say why he rejects "feathered. He says he thinks
> it unlikely (für unmöglich) and that probably romaka has nothing to do
> with roma (meaning hair).
>
> He thinks words starting with l- (which also have initial  r- forms,
> as loman and roman for hair) are more truly Pali ( "echter Besitz des
> Pali") than words starting with r-, which I assume he feels are later
> and derived; this is because the Ostsprache (eastern language)
> regularly used l- rather than r-, so Lüders believed that words with
> l- were closer to the Ursprache (the original language of the canon),
> some of which language was preserved in Pali,
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Bryan
>
> ________________________________
> From: Chris Clark <chris.clark@... <mailto:chris.clark%40inbox.com>>
> To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com <mailto:palistudy%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 11:00:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [palistudy] Question on Jātaka 277
>
>
>
> Dear Bryan,
>
> Perhaps this ṭīkā is wrong. The word romaka is also found in Sanskrit
> and MW gives it as “a kind of saline earth and the salt extracted from
> it” and notes that the word is derived from the place name Rumā, which
> is apparently near Sambhar in Rajasthan. U Houq Sein’s Pali to Burmese
> dictionary agrees (trans. “romaka: salt located in the village of
> Rumā”). Of course, this meaning doesn’t seem to fit the Romakajāta.
> However romaka could simply mean “of/from Rumā”. Therefore, you could
> read the commentary as “romaka means ‘O one who was born in Rumā’
> (romakāti rumāya uppanna). In other words, in the root text the
> ascetic might be addressing the bodhisatta as someone who has come
> from the village of Rumā. Perhaps you could even consider Romaka the
> bodhisatta’s name in this particular rebirth (a name which implies he
> is from the village of Rumā). Of course, this speculation could easily
> turn out to be wrong and it needs
> more research.
>
> Incidentally, why did Lüders reject the translation “feathered”?
>
> Regards,
> Chris
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bryan.levman@... <mailto:bryan.levman%40yahoo.com>
> Sent: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 05:34:59 -0700 (PDT)
> To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com <mailto:palistudy%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [palistudy] Question on Jātaka 277
>
> Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo,
>
> No, I missed this. Here it refers to a type of salt (originating in a
> Roman country, per the tika) which I don't think makes sense in the
> Jātaka context. But thanks for pointing it out,
>
> Metta, Bryan
>
> ________________________________
> From: Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@... <mailto:yuttadhammo%40gmail.com>>
> To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com <mailto:palistudy%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 11:58:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [palistudy] Question on Jātaka 277
>
> Dear Bryan,
>
> Did you see the instance of romaka.m in the vinaya?
>
> "dve loṇāni — sāmuddaṃ kāḷaloṇaṃ. aparānipi dve loṇāni — sindhavaṃ,
> ubbhidaṃ. aparānipi dve loṇāni — *romakaṃ*, pakkālakaṃ."
>
> (parivārapāḷi, ekuttarikanayo, dukavāro)
>
> The tika says "Romajanapade jātaṃ *romakaṃ*. *Pakkālakan*ti
> yavakkhāraṃ."
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Yuttadhammo
>
> On 04/14/2012 06:59 AM, Bryan Levman wrote:
> >
> > Dear Friends,
> >
> > Does anyone know the meaning of the word "romaka"? It occurs in Jātaka
> > 277 and is usually tranlsated "feathered" (from Pāli roma/loma
> > meaning "hair"), but there are so many variants, that it is evident
> > the word was not understood by the scribes and/or bhāṇakas. Here is
> > the verse and the commentary:
> >
> > ♦ 79.
> > ♦ “vassānipaññāsa samādhikāni [var. Bi, samīdhītāni, Bd, samadhikāni],
> > vasimhaselassa guhāya romaka [var. Bid, romakā],
> > asaṅkamānāabhinibbutattā [var. Bi, abhinippaticittā,
> > Pd, abhinibbūticittā],
> > hatthattam [var. Ck, hatthattham, Cs Bd, hattatthaṃ] āyantimamaṇḍajā
> > pure.
> > For fifty years we have lived (vasimha, 1st pers. plural aorist?) in
> > this cave of rock,
> > O feathered ones (romakā; Lüders does
> > not think it means “feathered” per 1954: 32, footnote 4). Formerly
> > they came, the
> > egg-born ones, not hesitating, with a calm mind, taking my hand.
> >
> > Commentary:
> > ♦ tatthasamādhikānīti [var. samadhitāniti, samādhikāniti] samādhikāni
> > [mama adhikāni]. romakāti[ropakā]rūmaya uppanna [dumāya
> > uppanna/uppannā],sudhotapavāḷena [var., -lena]samānavaṇṇanettapādatāya
> > [sahanavaṇṇe
> > netta pādamakāya] bodhisattaṃ pārāvataṃ [var. pārāpataṃ,
> > pārāsataṃ] ālapati.asaṅkamānāti evaṃ atirekapaññāsavassāni imissā
> > pabbataguhāya vasantesu amhesu ete aṇḍajā ekadivasampi mayi āsaṅkaṃ
> > akatvā abhinibbutacittāva [abhinibbutacitā] hutvāpubbe mama hatthattaṃ
> > [hatthatthaṃ] hatthappasāraṇokāsaṃ[pasāraṇokāsaṃ] āgacchantītiattho.
> > samādhikāni means abundant. romaka means “Born from a
> > tree (romaka/ropakā/rūmaya/dumāya? or born with feathers?), he
> > addresses the
> > bodhisattva who is a pigeon, with the same feet, eyes and colour with
> > thoroughly clean sprouts(?pavāla).”
> > Lüders call this “unverständlich” and I agree.
> > asaṅkamānā means thus, for more than fifty years, when we were
> > dwelling in this mountain cave, these egg-born (birds) each day had no
> > fear of
> > me and were perfectly tranquil formerly, and came and took my hand
> > whenever it was stretched out.
> > The word has four different forms: romaka, ropaka, ruumaya and dumaaya
> > in the different recensions, so it seems like no one was quite sure of
> > its meaning. The commentator's explication of the word does not seem
> > to make sense (unless I am translating it wrong). Any help would be
> > appreciated,
> >
> > Metta, Bryan
> >
> > Lüders, H. 1954. Beobachtungen über die Sprache des Buddhistischen
> > Urkanons. Berlin: Akademie - Verlag.
>
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>
>


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