Re: Kc 29

Thanks Jim,

Yes it's getting clearer now - these texts are quite an exercise in conciseness
and (sometimes) they are very difficult to penetrate. I admire your persistence
and your acumen, and I must say, I am learning a lot, so keep it coming!

Best wishes, Bryan







________________________________
From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@...>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 1:44:55 PM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] Kc 29

  
Hi Bryan,

Jim:
<One question I have: what does "dvebhaavo" or "dvebhaava.m" actually
mean here?. Literally, it can mean two-state, twoness, dualness,
doubleness.>

Bryan:
I think they mean the same thing, i. e. doubling of the consonant.

Jim:
That's the interpretation that I've understood. My question relates to
the problem of connecting the word (pada.m) to the meaning (attho).
"dvebhaavo" is a tappurisa compound (= dvinnna.m bhaavo). In the sense
of doubling I think of two identical consonants side by side,
e.g. -pp- as in Kc 28 but in Kc 29 we have two different consonants
side by side, e.g. -jjh-. The commentaries seem to get around this
problem by making a distinction between symetrical (sadisa) and
asymetrical (asadisa) doubling.

Bryan:
As you say Kc 29 must be understood in the light of Kc 28 which says,
"There is a doubling of a following consonant, after a vowel, in some
cases." What is doubled is in the genitive.

Jim:
We should also add Kc 7's definition of "vagga" for explaining what
the third and first letters are. Ole gave an excellent explanation.

Bryan:
So in KC 29 - as you have pointed out - the structure should be the
same,
"With respect to the vagga consonants, after a vowel, the third
and first (unaspirated) consonant of the previous voiced and unvoiced
(aspirated) consonant doubles." Which means that the j- of jh- doubles
to jjh, for example. What doubles is the aspirated voiced/unvoiced
consonant (jh-) but it doubles with the respective third
(unvoiced)/first (voiced) (unaspirated) consonant (j-).

Jim:
I think that "pubbesa.m" is referring to the cosonants that
immediately precede the second one in the pair but it's really not all
that clear.

Kacc-v 29:
Vagge kho pubbesaṃ byañjanānaṃ ghosāghosabhūtānaṃ saramhā
yathāsaṅkhyaṃ tatiya-paṭhamakkharā dvebhāvaṃ gacchanti ṭhāne.

Another translation:
Of the preceding voiced and unvoiced consonants in a vagga (of 5
lettes) after a vowel, the third and first letters go to the state of
the double in some places.

This excludes the second and fourth letters in the vagga. Another way
could be that the aspirated consonants are first doubled in Kc 28 and
then Kc 29 changes the first member of the pair into an unaspirated
one.

Bryan:
I think, from the examples, it's clear what is being communicated; the
grammar is just very concise and not that clear. Hope this helps

Thanks! I think we know what the sutta and its vutti is trying to tell
us, or at least we get the drift.

Best wishes,
Jim






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