Re: Kc 1

Dear All,
re:
(2)  Attho akkharasaññāto.

...isn't about written language or spelling at all, but a fairly profound
statement about the relation between sound and meaning either in Pali or (I
would like to think) in all languages, whether in pre-literate or literate
times.  I propose (1') as a preferable translation of (2):

(1')  "Meaning is known through sounds."

I agree with George in part and appreciate the succinctness of this
sentence.  If we want to go a step further, and say what meaning is known,
how and by what, we can supply answers to these questions from the vutti:
Attho—the meaning of every word of a language; akkharasaññāto — is known
well, is recorded, by means of the letters [sounds, if you must] which make
up the word.

By the way, the Ashins emphasize time and again that language is both
written and spoken, not exclusively one or the other.  Akkharavipatti is to
be understood as pronouncing or writing k as kh, and so forth [Ashin
Janakābhivaṃsa, Kaccāyana Bhāsāṭīkā].  Akkhara refers only to letters
correctly written, or the sounds they represent properly pronounced; eva is
used to indicate that those which are 'deformed,' mispronounced or
incorrectly written, are to be excluded [ibid].

with metta,
Ma Vajira

On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 10:18 AM, George Bedell <gdbedell@...> wrote:
> All,
>
> Consider the English sentence (1):
>
> (1)  "The meaning is correctly known through the letters."
>
> Pretend (for the sake of argument) that we don't know (a) that this is a
translation from Pali, (b) what the translated Pali words are, (c) what the
Sanskrit words are which correspond to them, (d) what later commentaries
have said about them, or (e) how they are defined or analyzed in Pali
dictionaries and grammars.
>
> What does (1) tell us?  First of all, it is talking about written, not
spoken language..  Maybe it is telling us to be careful in reading and
writing; if we don't know how to spell, we may misunderstand or cause others
to misunderstand.
>
> What about (2); what does it tell us (those of us who know a little Pali
and are studying Kaccaayana)?
>
> (2)  Attho akkharasaññāto.
>
> It isn't about written language or spelling at all, but a fairly profound
statement about the relation between sound and meaning either in Pali or (I
would like to think) in all languages, whether in pre-literate or literate
times.  I propose (1') as a preferable translation of (2):
>
> (1')  "Meaning is known through sounds."
>
> I have eliminated the definite article since this is the first statement
in the grammar, and there are no specific meanings or letters to which it
refers.  And 'correctly' is redundant (since incorrect knowledge would not
be knowledge at all).  We still need to ask exactly what Kaccaayana means by
(2), but to insist on 'letter' as opposed to 'sound' (for whatever reason)
still strikes me as mistaken.
>
> I think this agrees with Ma Vajira when she said:
>> We need to understand as much as possible what is written in Kaccaayana,
but
>> we also need to develop an English translation that is meaningful and
practical.
>
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